Philosophy Discussion Forums

Socrat -

Take Asia for example, there are billions of small business men, selling baskets and foods on the street, but they remain stuck in that groove.

I am not sure this is the right way of looking at it. Maybe they are quite happy and care about what they do rather than considering themselves stuck in a groove?

Some people don't push toward the idea of creating more and more just for the sake of it.

I always like to think about the story Bill Gates told about the fisherman in the West Indies. He had a big mansion next to some old guys shack. Bill Gates watched him go out everyday and catch some fish for dinner and then go to market to sell the excess. Bill asked him why he didn't catch more and save to buy a bigger boat and hire crew to fish for him, and then expand into a fleet. He simply said, if I did that and made millions like you then I would buy a nice house on this beautiful beach and spend my days enjoying it with my wife.

He already had his dream. He was simply did not have the drive or want to build some fishing empire. People are different, and some may dream about having this or that, but when it comes down to it a lot of the time if we look hard enough at ourselves we know what we're capable of and know what excuses we make for ourselves for not being who we really are.

Point being Socrat, you may have the business mind and drive to create a basket weaving empire and dream of all the good you could do by providing jobs, or maybe you just want a nicer car and a bigger house, but that is not everyone's dream and even if the dream is achieved it is a pitiful goal.

In a more serious tone, I do think there is a risk of creating a workforce that is forever hovering around the poverty line. For some I can see the stress would be horrible and would not wish such constant pressure on anyone. At least if people can eat and have enough basic nutrition their brains are functioning well enough to create a path out of the situation if they are under duress.

The whoel IQ issue is a looming problem too and one ignored. With 10% of the population of around IQ levels of 85 and below there simply are not enough jobs to go around. They are capable only of simple manual labour. Given that those jobs are being taken away even more people are left with nothing to do and no doubt feel quite cold shouldered by society.

It appears mas industry is moving more toward creativity and artistic endeavors. This will hopefully at least provide some in the lower regions of IQ to rise up into social industry because artistic ability seems to be mostly unrelated to IQ. Th eproblem is then one of exploitation.

Two more factors to consider regarding those tiny enterprises that won't or can't grow.

One: most of the mushrooms and baskets, nuts and spices I was talking about are not intended for local selling on a city street - though that is another kind of endeavour you see quite a lot of in Asia, and I imagine at least some of those street vendors do okay. The small-scale cottage industries more often takes place in a rural village or town, and the product is contracted out to an export broker; shipped off to America and Europe, so that some revenue actually returns from the colonizers to the ex-colonies.

Two: Since the enterprises are familial or communal, they promote co-operation; pool resources and share the income. Everyone contributes, instead of having one breadwinner and a bunch of dependents. They don't need to become rich, or or richer than their neighbours, to be happy: they only need to reach a median standard of living in their own environment - not relative to upper-middle-class America, with all its guns, angst, substance dependency and mutual hostility.
It keeps adults and children of all ages in close contact with one another, at home, rather than commuting the ridiculous distances industrial societies require, which saves an incalculable amount of fuel, pollution and traffic congestion - as well as productive time and psychological damage to the workers themselves.
The small enterprises are chosen according to local conditions and materials - don't have to ship in supplies and spend money abroad.

What I had not considered until Burning ghost brought it up is the other health factor. Even if people now living in deep poverty rise only above that line, they will be better nourished - that's already sufficient to make them smarter and more productive, and that's a big step!
Most of these enterprises do not a huge amount of IQ or education; can be done by average people, while at the same time providing desired products to prosperous populations elsewhere, who maybe export their technological expertise in return. If a balance could be struck between cottage industry and its optimal markets, everybody wins.

Jobs and employment are the whole wrong way to go. Let's try something on a a human scale, for human needs.

Alias wrote:

Socrateaze wrote: What kind of job could an unskilled three-year-old get? Who would pay him?

I'm not sure a skilled one would fare much better.

Albert Tatlock wrote:

Alias wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

I'm not sure a skilled one would fare much better.

You haven't been watching the talent shows.

Alias,

I guess the question remains, is it ethical, which is the worse fate? My burning question is, shouldn't we allow the capable 14yr old to work if it will better their life?

Socrateaze wrote:Alias,

I guess the question remains, is it ethical, which is the worse fate? My burning question is, shouldn't we allow the capable 14yr old to work if it will better their life?

And my counter-question still stands: Who is stopping him?
Which "we" prevent which 14-year-olds, where, from working at what occupation?

-- Updated October 16th, 2017, 2:13 pm to add the following --

All kinds of western-owned industrial enterprises are already employing many thousands of youthful workers at very low wages.
In most western countries, it is illegal to force children into servitude, or deprive them of an education - though I'm not sure how closely this law is being enforced in an era of breaking down the labour and welfare legislations of the 20th century. I suppose, once they've eradicated minimum wage and employees protection, the Trumpites won't stop at an age-line of competition for the few remaining jobs.

Do i think children should be allowed to starve?
No.
Do I think children should be forced to work in factories, mills, sweatshops or mines?
No.
Do I consider it ethical to exploit any captive labour force for the benefit of its employers?
No.
Do I believe there is an either-or choice in the "developing" world between children getting jobs and starving?
No.
It's simply not a question relevant to any reality of which I am aware.

Alias wrote:

Albert Tatlock wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

I'm not sure a skilled one would fare much better.

You haven't been watching the talent shows.

Well from the point of view of some of us, letting that particular kind of three year old starve would be the lesser of two evils.

Albert Tatlock wrote: Well from the point of view of some of us, letting that particular kind of three year old starve would be the lesser of two evils.

Joshing aside - -- please! - -- if you do look at some of the juvenile talent on You Tube, you form a better appreciation of human capabilities.
I believe that north Americans generally underestimate their young, even while over-valuing the offspring of the middle-class and discarding an increasingly large under-class of working poor, and unemployed, which includes the neglect of its progeny, wasting incalculable potential.
Even so, the solution is not more underage employment, but a vastly improved social structure.

Socrateaze wrote:Hi all - I'm having technical difficulties on my side, sorry for not returning sooner to the conversation. I just want to make sure everything is okay before I continue the conversation. I apologize for any inconvenience.

-- Updated October 11th, 2017, 4:17 am to add the following --

Hi, all,

Seems my technical issues are resolved now.

What I meant when I started this forum was not to suggest we allow children to become slaves, but rather to work, protected by law and be free from exploitation. I was actually thinking of the starving children in some of the African countries and other places when I began this conversation. The question is, is it possible to provide jobs for them so they can earn enough to make a fair life for themselves? I would not condone slavery or exploitation and these would be the very things that I would avoid; I'm thinking more of a project of empowerment for those that have nowhere else to turn.

Mass starvation has basically been wiped out from earth. For the most part. Obesity is the greater problem now facing the world. Obesity is a rising problem in Africa too.

China is bringing a lot of infrastructural development to Africa (and being contracted for some infrastructural jobs in Latin America too from Brazil to Panama), so, the jobs created, portions of employment going to Africans, results in more people buying food.

This does not mean individual adults and children never starve. That happens--and even in the USA (usually from a cruel parent or guardian denying the child access to any food)--and malnutrition is still a big problem throughout the developing world.

As for child labor--it goes on throughout the developing countries, usually in the non-taxed economies (underground economies), throughout Latin America, Africa, and Asia. The former President of Brazil: Lula, for example, worked as a small boy shinning shoes and selling peanuts to help his single mother bring in money (he had lots of siblings too).

Supine wrote: Mass starvation has basically been wiped out from earth. For the most part. Obesity is the greater problem now facing the world. Obesity is a rising problem in Africa too.

It basically hasn't. The numbers have been reduced somewhat, but climate change is bringing them back up - most frequently through water shortage and clop failure. It will get much worse as the pollinating insect populations continue to decline and become extinct.

Wasting and severe wasting
Globally, 51 million under-five year olds were wasted and 17 million were severely wasted in 2013.
Globally, wasting prevalence in 2013 was estimated at almost 8% and nearly a third of that was for severe wasting, totaling 3%.
In 2013, approximately two thirds of all wasted children lived in Asia and almost one third in Africa, with similar proportions for severely wasted children. (UNICEF et al. 2014b)
worldhunger.org/2015-world-hunger-and-p ... tatistics/

China is bringing a lot of infrastructural development to Africa (and being contracted for some infrastructural jobs in Latin America too from Brazil to Panama), so, the jobs created, portions of employment going to Africans, results in more people buying food.

Up to a point. But how much food is there to buy and how many Africans can compete for it?
theguardian.com/environment/2009/jul/03 ... -land-grab

This does not mean individual adults and children never starve. That happens--and even in the USA (usually from a cruel parent or guardian denying the child access to any food)--and malnutrition is still a big problem throughout the developing world.

Not so much from cruel parents as from poverty. Everywhere. worldhunger.org/hunger-in-america-2016- ... rty-facts/ In the US, and probably elsewhere, it's also partly due to ignorance and junk food being cheaper than wholesome food.
It would be quite a lot of worse, if not mitigated by government programs - welfare, food stamps, school lunches - and dedicated charities, such as the food bank. But as federal funding is cut off, the poor states that can't make up for the shortfall with local initiatives will see a steep rise in malnutrition and its related illnesses and developmental problems - which won't be addressed, as health care is de-subsidized and insurance premiums rise out of reach.

As for child labor--it goes on throughout the developing countries, ...

and some in the 'developed' ones, too. There's not nearly as much as there used to be - mostly just migrant and seasonal farm work - but then, the parents are unemployed or underemployed. Kids can't drive for Uber without being noticed, but it's switching to autonomous cars anyway. There are no more jobs when/where the law and its enforcement is lax enough to allow child exploitation - all that happens is the parents are fired and their kids do the same work for lower wages.

-- Updated October 31st, 2017, 11:16 pm to add the following --

I meant, of course crop failure. livescience.com/53400-crop-failure-drai ... warms.html