Is this person a "liar"?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
Dperkinstx
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: September 16th, 2017, 6:45 pm

Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Dperkinstx »

Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Sy Borg »

No, just an addict.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Alias »

Addiction tends to turn people into liars or jerks or both - but only in a limited spectrum.
Of course the smoker (gambler, overeater, whatever) isn't going to confess failure voluntarily; they'll go into damage-control mode first, then denial, then self-deception then outright deception, then defiance and finally open rebellion.
That doesn't mean they'll lie about other things.
So, no, their character doesn't change.
Don't label them - just back off and extend whatever help you can.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Spectrum »

Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
Not a liar, but had only changed his/her mind after his promise 5 weeks ago.

A lie is a false statement, i.e. not true.
Thus if A met B later and informed B that s/he had not smoked since as promised 5 weeks ago, that would be a false statement, thus a lie.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by LuckyR »

Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
No, it is not a lie. Any more than when the weatherman tells you it is going to rain, yet it doesn't, could be called a lie. Person A was making a prediction. No rational person expects predictions to be 100% accurate. Since A did in fact quit, the rewording of their prediction: "I will stop smoking" (forever), to: "I will try to stop smoking" (which they did do), makes this idea more clear.

Second issue is the restarting of the smoking ONLY AT WORK. This is, of course not a lie, it is a deception or is misleading. Separate thing.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Atreyu »

A "liar", to me, is someone who lies on a regular basis. Therefore, based on the info provided, I could not say that Person A is a "liar". They told a lie, but this might not be their "modus operandi" in life.

If we define a "liar" to be anyone who has ever told a lie, then we would all be "liars", and the term would lose all its meaning and value....
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Eduk »

Maybe and maybe not. They could have been sincere. They could then have changed their mind but attempted to hide this fact. People seem to be not reading that they smoke at work so that the other person will not know.

Of course in real life you likely don't know they are smoking at work with this express intention, but that is how the problem was presented.

But if we talking about actual real life then it is very likely that person A would kind of like to stop smoking in a not very determined or thought out way and would also really like person B to not judge them (either out of respect/love/simple path of least resistance or a combination - who knows).

Alias gives the best actual advice. Constantly making someone aware of 'not' smoking makes them constantly aware that they would like to smoke. The best solution is do all kinds of things you can't do while smoking while never mentioning smoking (tough to pull off though).
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Ulrich
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: September 21st, 2017, 3:13 am

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Ulrich »

Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
In the context of the agreement of A and B A's behavior is certainly a lie. Of course the statement of A ("I will stop smoking") does not have a truth value as such, it is more of an intention expressed to B. However there is certainly a tacit agreement that A will keep his promise and try to stop smoking, at least that is what B will expect from A. B thus developed a concret image of A's future behaviour: In B's mind A is a non-smoker until he admits to have relapsed or is caught in the act. So if A starts to smoke again without telling B so, he is creating a false impression in B's mind in the sense that everything is still according to the agreement. B is therefore mislead by A. As the OP goes to show A is even more concious of that, because he is hinding from B when he smokes. He does not want B to know the truth, i.e. the changed behaviour.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by LuckyR »

Ulrich wrote:
Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
In the context of the agreement of A and B A's behavior is certainly a lie. Of course the statement of A ("I will stop smoking") does not have a truth value as such, it is more of an intention expressed to B. However there is certainly a tacit agreement that A will keep his promise and try to stop smoking, at least that is what B will expect from A. B thus developed a concret image of A's future behaviour: In B's mind A is a non-smoker until he admits to have relapsed or is caught in the act. So if A starts to smoke again without telling B so, he is creating a false impression in B's mind in the sense that everything is still according to the agreement. B is therefore mislead by A. As the OP goes to show A is even more concious of that, because he is hinding from B when he smokes. He does not want B to know the truth, i.e. the changed behaviour.
Your analysis is accurate but you are confusing what is promisable (action) with what is not promisable or ultimately controllable (results). In other words A can promise to try to quit smoking, which he did in fact accomplish (hence why he is not a liar on that score). He cannot guarantee outcome (his relapse), thus it is unrealistic for B to expect that.

As to A's deception of smoking at work, many would call that an untruth of omission. Is that a lie? Reasonable folks will disagree.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Ulrich
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: September 21st, 2017, 3:13 am

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Ulrich »

LuckyR wrote:
Ulrich wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


In the context of the agreement of A and B A's behavior is certainly a lie. Of course the statement of A ("I will stop smoking") does not have a truth value as such, it is more of an intention expressed to B. However there is certainly a tacit agreement that A will keep his promise and try to stop smoking, at least that is what B will expect from A. B thus developed a concret image of A's future behaviour: In B's mind A is a non-smoker until he admits to have relapsed or is caught in the act. So if A starts to smoke again without telling B so, he is creating a false impression in B's mind in the sense that everything is still according to the agreement. B is therefore mislead by A. As the OP goes to show A is even more concious of that, because he is hinding from B when he smokes. He does not want B to know the truth, i.e. the changed behaviour.
Your analysis is accurate but you are confusing what is promisable (action) with what is not promisable or ultimately controllable (results). In other words A can promise to try to quit smoking, which he did in fact accomplish (hence why he is not a liar on that score). He cannot guarantee outcome (his relapse), thus it is unrealistic for B to expect that.

As to A's deception of smoking at work, many would call that an untruth of omission. Is that a lie? Reasonable folks will disagree.
In my opinion the action and the result, which you separate are the same thing: A is not smokinga anymore. And that is something he can (to a certain degree) control. But I think the freedom of A and the separation of "action" and "result" are beside the point. The philosophical problem of the OP, at least in my view, is the question if there is something like a lie by omission, which you rightfully point out. I would argue that in general there is something like a lie by omission and A's behaviour is an example for it:
1. We have a fact (A is smoking again)
2. This fact is intentionally concealed/hidden from B by A.
3. A has the (lets say) moral duty to tell B, since he promised to stop smoking and therefore shaped B expectation of A's future behaviour.

Of course you could argue that A is just saying that he is trying to quit smoking, until he changes his mind. But this does not change anything about his omission. A is still hiding the fact from B that he started smoking again.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by LuckyR »

Ulrich wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Your analysis is accurate but you are confusing what is promisable (action) with what is not promisable or ultimately controllable (results). In other words A can promise to try to quit smoking, which he did in fact accomplish (hence why he is not a liar on that score). He cannot guarantee outcome (his relapse), thus it is unrealistic for B to expect that.

As to A's deception of smoking at work, many would call that an untruth of omission. Is that a lie? Reasonable folks will disagree.
In my opinion the action and the result, which you separate are the same thing: A is not smokinga anymore. And that is something he can (to a certain degree) control. But I think the freedom of A and the separation of "action" and "result" are beside the point. The philosophical problem of the OP, at least in my view, is the question if there is something like a lie by omission, which you rightfully point out. I would argue that in general there is something like a lie by omission and A's behaviour is an example for it:
1. We have a fact (A is smoking again)
2. This fact is intentionally concealed/hidden from B by A.
3. A has the (lets say) moral duty to tell B, since he promised to stop smoking and therefore shaped B expectation of A's future behaviour.

Of course you could argue that A is just saying that he is trying to quit smoking, until he changes his mind. But this does not change anything about his omission. A is still hiding the fact from B that he started smoking again.
I happen to agree with you completely as to the lie by omission. My test is: is A trying to deceive B? In my view the answer is yes and thus it is a lie. By the same token, stating an untruth, that everyone knows is not true, is not a lie since it deceives no one.

As to controllables and uncontrollables, everyone knows a surgeon can guarantee they will try their best, but can't guarantee outcome.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Razblo
Posts: 157
Joined: July 11th, 2017, 8:52 am

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Razblo »

In the report in the OP he didn't say when he would stop smoking.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Alias »

Razblo wrote:In the report in the OP he didn't say when he would stop smoking.
That's just a lie by evasion.
Acting and speaking in such a way as to lead another person to believe something one knows to be untrue is deliberate deception.
There are many shades and degrees of deception, just as there are many means to the same end, and many motives for doing so.
We may judge different kinds of lie more or less severely because of extenuating or exacerbating circumstances -
but we know when a lie is a lie - except in politics.
User avatar
Razblo
Posts: 157
Joined: July 11th, 2017, 8:52 am

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Razblo »

Alias wrote:
Razblo wrote:In the report in the OP he didn't say when he would stop smoking.
That's just a lie by evasion.
Acting and speaking in such a way as to lead another person to believe something one knows to be untrue is deliberate deception.
There are many shades and degrees of deception, just as there are many means to the same end, and many motives for doing so.
We may judge different kinds of lie more or less severely because of extenuating or exacerbating circumstances -
but we know when a lie is a lie - except in politics.
We know when a lie is told except in politics? I don't get that at all. We certainly can know when politicians lie.

And "evasion" is not lying, and the apparently "evasive" smoking person A may have merely been publicly expressing their hope that they would quit. If so this is not lying. It is merely an internal and personal struggle.
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Is this person a "liar"?

Post by Atreyu »

Razblo wrote: And "evasion" is not lying, and the apparently "evasive" smoking person A may have merely been publicly expressing their hope that they would quit. If so this is not lying. It is merely an internal and personal struggle.
If a person says he will do something tomorrow, and does not do it, then he lied. A lie is a lie whether or not it was conscious or unconscious, intentional or unintentional.

And unconscious or unintentional lying is much worse than intentionally and consciously lying. If a man is going to lie, he should be fully aware he's lying, and he should know why he's lying. Intentionally lying to achieve an aim is preferable to habitually lying out of habit.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021