Is this person a "liar"?
- Dperkinstx
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Is this person a "liar"?
- Sy Borg
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
Of course the smoker (gambler, overeater, whatever) isn't going to confess failure voluntarily; they'll go into damage-control mode first, then denial, then self-deception then outright deception, then defiance and finally open rebellion.
That doesn't mean they'll lie about other things.
So, no, their character doesn't change.
Don't label them - just back off and extend whatever help you can.
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
Not a liar, but had only changed his/her mind after his promise 5 weeks ago.Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
A lie is a false statement, i.e. not true.
Thus if A met B later and informed B that s/he had not smoked since as promised 5 weeks ago, that would be a false statement, thus a lie.
- LuckyR
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
No, it is not a lie. Any more than when the weatherman tells you it is going to rain, yet it doesn't, could be called a lie. Person A was making a prediction. No rational person expects predictions to be 100% accurate. Since A did in fact quit, the rewording of their prediction: "I will stop smoking" (forever), to: "I will try to stop smoking" (which they did do), makes this idea more clear.Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
Second issue is the restarting of the smoking ONLY AT WORK. This is, of course not a lie, it is a deception or is misleading. Separate thing.
- Atreyu
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
If we define a "liar" to be anyone who has ever told a lie, then we would all be "liars", and the term would lose all its meaning and value....
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
Of course in real life you likely don't know they are smoking at work with this express intention, but that is how the problem was presented.
But if we talking about actual real life then it is very likely that person A would kind of like to stop smoking in a not very determined or thought out way and would also really like person B to not judge them (either out of respect/love/simple path of least resistance or a combination - who knows).
Alias gives the best actual advice. Constantly making someone aware of 'not' smoking makes them constantly aware that they would like to smoke. The best solution is do all kinds of things you can't do while smoking while never mentioning smoking (tough to pull off though).
- Ulrich
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
In the context of the agreement of A and B A's behavior is certainly a lie. Of course the statement of A ("I will stop smoking") does not have a truth value as such, it is more of an intention expressed to B. However there is certainly a tacit agreement that A will keep his promise and try to stop smoking, at least that is what B will expect from A. B thus developed a concret image of A's future behaviour: In B's mind A is a non-smoker until he admits to have relapsed or is caught in the act. So if A starts to smoke again without telling B so, he is creating a false impression in B's mind in the sense that everything is still according to the agreement. B is therefore mislead by A. As the OP goes to show A is even more concious of that, because he is hinding from B when he smokes. He does not want B to know the truth, i.e. the changed behaviour.Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
- LuckyR
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
Your analysis is accurate but you are confusing what is promisable (action) with what is not promisable or ultimately controllable (results). In other words A can promise to try to quit smoking, which he did in fact accomplish (hence why he is not a liar on that score). He cannot guarantee outcome (his relapse), thus it is unrealistic for B to expect that.Ulrich wrote:In the context of the agreement of A and B A's behavior is certainly a lie. Of course the statement of A ("I will stop smoking") does not have a truth value as such, it is more of an intention expressed to B. However there is certainly a tacit agreement that A will keep his promise and try to stop smoking, at least that is what B will expect from A. B thus developed a concret image of A's future behaviour: In B's mind A is a non-smoker until he admits to have relapsed or is caught in the act. So if A starts to smoke again without telling B so, he is creating a false impression in B's mind in the sense that everything is still according to the agreement. B is therefore mislead by A. As the OP goes to show A is even more concious of that, because he is hinding from B when he smokes. He does not want B to know the truth, i.e. the changed behaviour.Dperkinstx wrote:Person "A" tells person "B", "I will stop smoking". Five weeks later, person "A" starts smoking again, but only at work so person "B" won't know. Since person "B" didn't ask and person "A" didn't have to answer, do you consider person "A" to be a liar?
As to A's deception of smoking at work, many would call that an untruth of omission. Is that a lie? Reasonable folks will disagree.
- Ulrich
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
In my opinion the action and the result, which you separate are the same thing: A is not smokinga anymore. And that is something he can (to a certain degree) control. But I think the freedom of A and the separation of "action" and "result" are beside the point. The philosophical problem of the OP, at least in my view, is the question if there is something like a lie by omission, which you rightfully point out. I would argue that in general there is something like a lie by omission and A's behaviour is an example for it:LuckyR wrote:Your analysis is accurate but you are confusing what is promisable (action) with what is not promisable or ultimately controllable (results). In other words A can promise to try to quit smoking, which he did in fact accomplish (hence why he is not a liar on that score). He cannot guarantee outcome (his relapse), thus it is unrealistic for B to expect that.Ulrich wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
In the context of the agreement of A and B A's behavior is certainly a lie. Of course the statement of A ("I will stop smoking") does not have a truth value as such, it is more of an intention expressed to B. However there is certainly a tacit agreement that A will keep his promise and try to stop smoking, at least that is what B will expect from A. B thus developed a concret image of A's future behaviour: In B's mind A is a non-smoker until he admits to have relapsed or is caught in the act. So if A starts to smoke again without telling B so, he is creating a false impression in B's mind in the sense that everything is still according to the agreement. B is therefore mislead by A. As the OP goes to show A is even more concious of that, because he is hinding from B when he smokes. He does not want B to know the truth, i.e. the changed behaviour.
As to A's deception of smoking at work, many would call that an untruth of omission. Is that a lie? Reasonable folks will disagree.
1. We have a fact (A is smoking again)
2. This fact is intentionally concealed/hidden from B by A.
3. A has the (lets say) moral duty to tell B, since he promised to stop smoking and therefore shaped B expectation of A's future behaviour.
Of course you could argue that A is just saying that he is trying to quit smoking, until he changes his mind. But this does not change anything about his omission. A is still hiding the fact from B that he started smoking again.
- LuckyR
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
I happen to agree with you completely as to the lie by omission. My test is: is A trying to deceive B? In my view the answer is yes and thus it is a lie. By the same token, stating an untruth, that everyone knows is not true, is not a lie since it deceives no one.Ulrich wrote:In my opinion the action and the result, which you separate are the same thing: A is not smokinga anymore. And that is something he can (to a certain degree) control. But I think the freedom of A and the separation of "action" and "result" are beside the point. The philosophical problem of the OP, at least in my view, is the question if there is something like a lie by omission, which you rightfully point out. I would argue that in general there is something like a lie by omission and A's behaviour is an example for it:LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Your analysis is accurate but you are confusing what is promisable (action) with what is not promisable or ultimately controllable (results). In other words A can promise to try to quit smoking, which he did in fact accomplish (hence why he is not a liar on that score). He cannot guarantee outcome (his relapse), thus it is unrealistic for B to expect that.
As to A's deception of smoking at work, many would call that an untruth of omission. Is that a lie? Reasonable folks will disagree.
1. We have a fact (A is smoking again)
2. This fact is intentionally concealed/hidden from B by A.
3. A has the (lets say) moral duty to tell B, since he promised to stop smoking and therefore shaped B expectation of A's future behaviour.
Of course you could argue that A is just saying that he is trying to quit smoking, until he changes his mind. But this does not change anything about his omission. A is still hiding the fact from B that he started smoking again.
As to controllables and uncontrollables, everyone knows a surgeon can guarantee they will try their best, but can't guarantee outcome.
- Razblo
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
That's just a lie by evasion.Razblo wrote:In the report in the OP he didn't say when he would stop smoking.
Acting and speaking in such a way as to lead another person to believe something one knows to be untrue is deliberate deception.
There are many shades and degrees of deception, just as there are many means to the same end, and many motives for doing so.
We may judge different kinds of lie more or less severely because of extenuating or exacerbating circumstances -
but we know when a lie is a lie - except in politics.
- Razblo
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
We know when a lie is told except in politics? I don't get that at all. We certainly can know when politicians lie.Alias wrote:That's just a lie by evasion.Razblo wrote:In the report in the OP he didn't say when he would stop smoking.
Acting and speaking in such a way as to lead another person to believe something one knows to be untrue is deliberate deception.
There are many shades and degrees of deception, just as there are many means to the same end, and many motives for doing so.
We may judge different kinds of lie more or less severely because of extenuating or exacerbating circumstances -
but we know when a lie is a lie - except in politics.
And "evasion" is not lying, and the apparently "evasive" smoking person A may have merely been publicly expressing their hope that they would quit. If so this is not lying. It is merely an internal and personal struggle.
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Re: Is this person a "liar"?
If a person says he will do something tomorrow, and does not do it, then he lied. A lie is a lie whether or not it was conscious or unconscious, intentional or unintentional.Razblo wrote: And "evasion" is not lying, and the apparently "evasive" smoking person A may have merely been publicly expressing their hope that they would quit. If so this is not lying. It is merely an internal and personal struggle.
And unconscious or unintentional lying is much worse than intentionally and consciously lying. If a man is going to lie, he should be fully aware he's lying, and he should know why he's lying. Intentionally lying to achieve an aim is preferable to habitually lying out of habit.
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