The Universal Moral Code

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Albert Tatlock
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Albert Tatlock » October 29th, 2017, 4:56 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote:Quantum theory tells us that everything, all things which apparently are very different from each other, are actually made up of the same, basic, fundamental, raw material. / I personally believe that the fact that we are sentient, that we have consciousness, is telling us we are all of the same value and importance by virtue of that consciousness.
That, in itself, doesn't logically lead to the conclusion you come to. It's a bit like saying that because my house and my garden wall are both constructed from the same type of brick they are both of equal value. Value is subjective. From my point of view, the house is of greater value than the wall. From the point of view of a plant growing in a crack in the wall, the wall is of greater value. Besides, why do you think it fair that human beings should bear the responsibility of ensuring that all livings things be treated as equal when all other living things would necessarily be exempt from such a responsibility?
Call it a personal belief but it occurred to me that all suffering in the world (human and non-human) is due to not honoring this principle.
You seem to be implying that we are not meant to ever suffer and the fact that we do is evidence that we are doing something wrong. If I were to be struck by lightning, I would suffer. What principle do you suggest I honour in order to avoid that possibility.

BlindedWantsToSee
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » October 31st, 2017, 9:11 pm

Albert Tatlock wrote:
BlindedWantsToSee wrote:Quantum theory tells us that everything, all things which apparently are very different from each other, are actually made up of the same, basic, fundamental, raw material. / I personally believe that the fact that we are sentient, that we have consciousness, is telling us we are all of the same value and importance by virtue of that consciousness.
Albert Tatlock wrote: That, in itself, doesn't logically lead to the conclusion you come to. It's a bit like saying that because my house and my garden wall are both constructed from the same type of brick they are both of equal value. Value is subjective. From my point of view, the house is of greater value than the wall. From the point of view of a plant growing in a crack in the wall, the wall is of greater value.
Value is subjective; we agree on that. What I'm saying is that the system of values and beliefs we hold individually and as a society (in which, for example, we are superior to other species and have the right to use them as we see fit, regardless of whether they agree), are doing us a disservice because they are producing a quality of life for us which most people are not satisfied with.

Most people have very similar values. They believe they are, and their kind is, superior to other life forms. They want happiness, fun, respect from others, comfort, fairness, justice, freedom, peace, health, and many other factors that contribute to their overall well-being; but most people are not getting what they value and want. I believe we put in our lives the wrong values, beliefs, and actions (as a consequence of values and beliefs), and therefore we obtain the wrong results. Should all life forms decide to respect all other life forms, nobody would be disrespecting anybody. There would be peace.

Here is the controversial part. It is not possible for us to refrain from exploiting or destroying other life forms and remain alive for very long, because we need to eat, and we have other needs which require us to exploit and/or destroy other living beings. To me it is obvious that this life we are living, the one that forces us to do injustice to other living beings, is of an evil, unjust, nature. We should not participate, or exit as soon as possible, if we can help it. It say "injustice" because if those actions are taken against any of us, we know deep inside in our minds or hearts that what is happening, what is being done to us, is wrong. I think all life is playing a sort of universal cosmic game. Some players love the game (which is just fine) and would play multiple times if they could, and some, (maybe the ones that have seen all of the cheating and the injuries that go on) have had enough of it and will quit playing at some point.
Albert Tatlock wrote: Besides, why do you think it fair that human beings should bear the responsibility of ensuring that all livings things be treated as equal when all other living things would necessarily be exempt from such a responsibility?
I don't. I suggest we keep our hands to ourselves only; just to stop hurting or exploiting other living beings as much as we can. I'm not sure what the results of that would be. They probably would be positive for the human race, but I think the above exit plan is a more effective choice.
Albert Tatlock wrote:
(Nested quote removed.)

You seem to be implying that we are not meant to ever suffer and the fact that we do is evidence that we are doing something wrong. If I were to be struck by lightning, I would suffer. What principle do you suggest I honour in order to avoid that possibility.
I don't believe that people should suffer. It's OK that we should suffer and live a miserable life only because we say it's OK, or accept that it is. But that is not an absolute truth. There is really no good reason for suffering, other than that is the way things work out in life. If somebody really wants to suffer, that's fine; I believe people should have the experiences they want, without imposing their choices on others against their will.

I don't believe most people want to suffer, and they believe they suffer necessarily because they ignore the rules of the game, and they live in the wrong way as a consequence of their ignorance.

To answer your last question: According to my system of beliefs and morality, the atmosphere would be hurting you, doing evil against you. I would suggest you honor rule number 3. d. which states " Evil is unacceptable. Nobody should tolerate it or put up with it." If the Earth is going to treat me like that, then the hell with Earth. I'm going somewhere else because I do not put up with that sort of abuse against my person. I value myself. I value the quality of my life experience. If we did that, that lightning strike would probably be our last time of experiencing something unpleasant.

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Albert Tatlock
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Albert Tatlock » November 1st, 2017, 5:06 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote: Here is the controversial part. It is not possible for us to refrain from exploiting or destroying other life forms and remain alive for very long, because we need to eat, and we have other needs which require us to exploit and/or destroy other living beings. To me it is obvious that this life we are living, the one that forces us to do injustice to other living beings, is of an evil, unjust, nature. We should not participate, or exit as soon as possible, if we can help it. It say "injustice" because if those actions are taken against any of us, we know deep inside in our minds or hearts that what is happening, what is being done to us, is wrong. I think all life is playing a sort of universal cosmic game. Some players love the game (which is just fine) and would play multiple times if they could, and some, (maybe the ones that have seen all of the cheating and the injuries that go on) have had enough of it and will quit playing at some point.
It's as if you think it should be otherwise, but why should it be? This is just the way it is and using words like injustice and evil is just the way you choose to look at it. Evolution -whether positively or inadvertently- gave us the capacity for feeling compassion and empathy for one another and for other creatures, whereas most other creatures seem rather deficient in that respect so perhaps they would be even less concerned with our well being than we are with theirs if they had the upper hand.
To answer your last question: According to my system of beliefs and morality, the atmosphere would be hurting you, doing evil against you. I would suggest you honor rule number 3. d. which states " Evil is unacceptable. Nobody should tolerate it or put up with it." If the Earth is going to treat me like that, then the hell with Earth. I'm going somewhere else because I do not put up with that sort of abuse against my person. I value myself. I value the quality of my life experience. If we did that, that lightning strike would probably be our last time of experiencing something unpleasant.
So when the "evil" Earth gets too much for us where do you suggest we go?

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » November 5th, 2017, 6:23 pm

Albert Tatlock wrote: ... So when the "evil" Earth gets too much for us where do you suggest we go?
You've got me there, Albert. I don't know. I'm willing to take a chance of finding somewhere more unpleasant, for the sake of changing the status quo (at least for me).

This is definitely a matter of personal preference. Whatever we want to choose is right for us. I really dislike our present global condition, I dislike the bloodshed and human misery in the history of our planet. It breaks my heart how we hurt each other and animals and so on. So, I'm choosing to do all I can to change the reality I live in. Choosing to try other solutions, or choosing to do nothing at all are valid options as well; no shame on any of it. Some people are just not aware of any of this issues, so that's why I write about them and hope that my contribution makes a positive difference in their lives.

Steve3007
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Steve3007 » November 6th, 2017, 4:08 am

Mars perhaps? I hear it's quite nice in the summer.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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Atreyu
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Atreyu » November 6th, 2017, 5:28 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote:Here is the controversial part. It is not possible for us to refrain from exploiting or destroying other life forms and remain alive for very long, because we need to eat, and we have other needs which require us to exploit and/or destroy other living beings. To me it is obvious that this life we are living, the one that forces us to do injustice to other living beings, is of an evil, unjust, nature. We should not participate, or exit as soon as possible, if we can help it. It say "injustice" because if those actions are taken against any of us, we know deep inside in our minds or hearts that what is happening, what is being done to us, is wrong. I think all life is playing a sort of universal cosmic game. Some players love the game (which is just fine) and would play multiple times if they could, and some, (maybe the ones that have seen all of the cheating and the injuries that go on) have had enough of it and will quit playing at some point.
I find it extremely odd to be concerned with the subjective plight of your food sources.

Have you ever killed anything?

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » November 7th, 2017, 9:05 am

Atreyu wrote:
BlindedWantsToSee wrote:Here is the controversial part... Some players love the game (which is just fine) and would play multiple times if they could, and some, (maybe the ones that have seen all of the cheating and the injuries that go on) have had enough of it and will quit playing at some point.
I find it extremely odd to be concerned with the subjective plight of your food sources.

Have you ever killed anything?
Sure I have, many things, mostly insects or bacteria attacking my health. My reason tells me that taking the life or disrespecting the will of other living beings are not a righteous actions to take. My problem is that it is impossible to be righteous or to live righteously as long as we have physical bodies, due to the nature of those bodies. Also, we are forced to live in an environment where nobody else can be righteous and just to all living beings. As long as we remain living in this unjust environment, we will have to deal with evil and injustice being done against us (everybody is doing it, everywhere, so it is just a matter of time before somebody does it to us).

Steve3007
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Steve3007 » November 7th, 2017, 1:28 pm

BlindedWantsToSee:
Sure I have, many things, mostly insects or bacteria attacking my health. My reason tells me that taking the life or disrespecting the will of other living beings are not a righteous actions to take. My problem is that it is impossible to be righteous or to live righteously as long as we have physical bodies, due to the nature of those bodies.
Perhaps you could try to get over this hangup you seem to have about this human-made concept of "life". Us humans arbitrarily define the bunch of molecules collectively known as a bacterium as "life" and the molecules of, say, water, as non-life. Why be bound by that?

If you use electrolysis to split a water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen, I presume you wouldn't regard that as "disrespecting" H2O? Why not try to think the same thing about the bacterium? Then you can happily let your immune system go ahead and kill them without feeling bad about it.

Once you've managed that, work your way up as far as insects and we'll take it from there.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Kathyd » November 7th, 2017, 10:12 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote:Sure I have, many things, mostly insects or bacteria attacking my health. My reason tells me that taking the life or disrespecting the will of other living beings are not a righteous actions to take. My problem is that it is impossible to be righteous or to live righteously as long as we have physical bodies, due to the nature of those bodies. Also, we are forced to live in an environment where nobody else can be righteous and just to all living beings. As long as we remain living in this unjust environment, we will have to deal with evil and injustice being done against us (everybody is doing it, everywhere, so it is just a matter of time before somebody does it to us).
Have you considered that perhaps one of the reasons an organism exists is to eventually be food for another organism?

I find it odd to call killing and eating a cow "unrighteous", perhaps because I'm of the opinion that that is one of the reasons the cow was born. Its destiny, and at least one of the reasons for its existence, was to eventually help maintain the existence of another, perhaps more important, organism. Just as someday me and you will die and eventually be food for other organisms, also perhaps more important ones.

Also, have you considered that if we don't eat other living things that we ourselves will die? Being "righteous" in your view would mean we choose death, and a slow painful one. I might even consider that "unrighteous".

Do you really think we are supposed to put the interests of insects and bacteria ahead of our own?

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » November 8th, 2017, 9:16 am

Kathyd wrote:
BlindedWantsToSee wrote:...
Have you considered that perhaps one of the reasons an organism exists is to eventually be food for another organism?

I find it odd to call killing and eating a cow "unrighteous", perhaps because I'm of the opinion that that is one of the reasons the cow was born. Its destiny, and at least one of the reasons for its existence, was to eventually help maintain the existence of another, perhaps more important, organism. Just as someday me and you will die and eventually be food for other organisms, also perhaps more important ones.

Also, have you considered that if we don't eat other living things that we ourselves will die? Being "righteous" in your view would mean we choose death, and a slow painful one. I might even consider that "unrighteous".

Do you really think we are supposed to put the interests of insects and bacteria ahead of our own?
Yes, I have; but that is what I'm saying: "destiny" and the whole system of the life we live, where organisms exist to be food for other organisms, are morally wrong in my view because they cause suffering to sentient beings.

The reason we have the concept of morality is because we are sentient; we have feelings; we have a free will. Without these elements morality is meaningless. All beings which possess these characteristics are morally equal. Human beings believe they are more important than others because they are making that judgement from a subjective point of view, not an objective, impartial one.

You, as an individual living being, with your own life and free will, have the right to exercise your free will on what is yours (your life, your body, etc.), as long as you respect the rights of all other living beings. If you want to give up that right and believe, instead, that others are entitled to run your life and dispose of you the way they see fit, you have the right to do that as well.

I don't believe we are supposed to put the interests of insects and bacteria ahead of our own. I believe they are equally important; however, we are at war with each other. Their thriving is our demise and vise-verse. This reality is wrong because there can never be peace here. I don't agree with it. Each living being has the right to agree or disagree.

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Chili » November 8th, 2017, 11:30 am

Animals and people co-evolve with each other and with bacteria. Our guts wouldn't work without bacteria. Different types of bacteria are at war with one another in your mouth, in your gut, on your skin. Predator species have evolved specializations to hunt and consume particular prey species.

Anyhow, here's this book.
https://press.princeton.edu/titles/9434.html
The Expanding Circle - Ethics, Evolution, and Moral Progress
by Peter Singer

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » November 8th, 2017, 3:55 pm

It's a hostile environment, but most people like it, it seems. That's fine with me.

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Kathyd
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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Kathyd » November 8th, 2017, 4:02 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote:I don't believe we are supposed to put the interests of insects and bacteria ahead of our own. I believe they are equally important; however, we are at war with each other. Their thriving is our demise and vise-verse. This reality is wrong because there can never be peace here. I don't agree with it. Each living being has the right to agree or disagree.
What do you mean by "wrong"?

Do you mean "unpleasant"? As in you can imagine it being a whole lot better? Something like "tough", "hard", or "difficult"?

Or do you mean something more along the lines of "not right", morally "bad", or "evil"?

If you mean the first, then I might agree with you.

But if you mean the second, then I'd suggest considering that perhaps this reality is supposed to be difficult, hard, and unjust. That way, people will try to find a way out (heaven).

After all, if everything worked the way we thought it should here on Earth - no war, no hate, all love, peace, abudance of food, and, most importantly, no aging or death - what would be the reason for our existence?

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by BlindedWantsToSee » November 8th, 2017, 9:18 pm

Steve3007 wrote:BlindedWantsToSee:
Sure I have....
Perhaps you could try to get over this hangup you seem to have about this human-made concept of "life". Us humans arbitrarily define the bunch of molecules collectively known as a bacterium as "life" and the molecules of, say, water, as non-life. Why be bound by that?

If you use electrolysis to split a water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen, I presume you wouldn't regard that as "disrespecting" H2O? Why not try to think the same thing about the bacterium? Then you can happily let your immune system go ahead and kill them without feeling bad about it.

Once you've managed that, work your way up as far as insects and we'll take it from there.
Thanks for the suggestion, Steve, but I don't believe this would really solve the problem at hand. I really do not need to make myself feel better about fighting illnesses, or eating or anything else I do. I promise.

What I set out to do, starting from my childhood, is to identify the cause of my suffering and that of those around me (human suffering, mainly; but really, the cause of suffering of all living beings), so all unwanted suffering can be reduced to zero (I don't believe there is a good reason for suffering to be present, other than maybe because a being wants to suffer). I believe I have identified this cause, which is living beings themselves, for the most part. We cause each other harm, and we cause harm to other living beings. In turn other living beings cause us harm. It is an undeclared war. We (our consciousness) live in a war zone. Our bodies are the battle field; and of course, the world/society in which we live could also be viewed as a place of constant or frequent struggle or war. There can never be true peace here.

Personally, I feel that I don't care for the human experience (taken as a whole). I mean, from birth to old age, most human beings go through a lot of trauma, some tragedy, a lot of sicknesses, loneliness, etc. There are many pleasant experiences also, of course; and this keeps most people going; but for what I've seen the unpleasant outweighs the pleasant for too many people, abused animals, ecosystems, etc. Unfortunately, this reality of life will never change, unless we change it. Changing our definitions, our philosophy of life, our way of interpreting life, will definitely help us feel better (subjectively) but does nothing about changing objective reality.

-- Updated November 8th, 2017, 10:43 pm to add the following --
Kathyd wrote: What do you mean by "wrong"?

Do you mean "unpleasant"? As in you can imagine it being a whole lot better? Something like "tough", "hard", or "difficult"?

Or do you mean something more along the lines of "not right", morally "bad", or "evil"?

If you mean the first, then I might agree with you.

But if you mean the second, then I'd suggest considering that perhaps this reality is supposed to be difficult, hard, and unjust. That way, people will try to find a way out (heaven).

After all, if everything worked the way we thought it should here on Earth - no war, no hate, all love, peace, abudance of food, and, most importantly, no aging or death - what would be the reason for our existence?
I mean morally wrong, evil, unjust, and not righteous (as it cannot support the first three premises of the Universal Moral Code I postulated). The fact that reality is supposed to be unjust makes reality an evil one. Of course, to each its own. It's not my cup of tea, but if people want evil in their lives, they definitely have a right to it.

The reason for our existence? I don't know, maybe to actually enjoy it uninterruptedly? As I said before, I believe there is no good reason to suffer, other than we want to do it, which is psychotic. There is no good reason for evil to be part of our lives, other than it IS a part of life. That makes life evil and us too.

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Re: The Universal Moral Code

Post by Namelesss » November 16th, 2017, 9:59 pm

BlindedWantsToSee wrote:The Universal Moral Code
First, there is no such thing, nor is such a thing possible.
'Morality' is the insane judging (by some) of others as 'good' and 'evil'! The 'good' and 'evil' you perceive is your own reflection!
Religiously, it is sin.
'Morality' is conditional, biased, vain, ignorant...

'Ethics' is;
"Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you!"
Ever! Period! No exceptions, no conditions, no insane judgment!

'Ethics' is unconditional, born of unconditional Love/Enlightenment!
Unconditional = Universal!

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