Comments about killing and war by Orwell

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Count Lucanor
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Re: Comments about killing and war by Orwell

Post by Count Lucanor »

Greta wrote: December 31st, 2017, 6:14 pm Yes, different eras. That was a time when the US were thought to be defenders from tyranny; even Vietnam could be seen as a miscalculation of power and reach, a mistake from which to learn. However, the Middle Eastern military adventurism of the west this millennium has been shocking.
Count Lucanor wrote: December 31st, 2017, 11:55 amI do find myself compelled to tackle the arguments in favor of war or its rules of engagement. Nothing deserves more condemnation than warmongering, as one the most distinctive signs of human stupidity.
I have attended just two demonstrations in my life and one was prior to Australia's amoral involvement in the Iraq war thanks to some desperate trickery, lying and obfuscation by our PM at the time, John Howard. I will never forget how he airily brushed off demonstrations including about half a million protesters with "Everyone has the right to an opinion" and claiming to have not yet made a decision while the warships were already at the Gulf.

Generally, today, we have more subtle means of conflict, although with a population of seven billion, you have to expect an increasing number to fall to warfare; it's simply too many people to keep peaceful, given resource and systemic limitations.
Happy New Year!!

Decades of war movies propaganda have successfully convinced the general public of the silly idea that the Allies in WWII were the ultimate representation of nobility, honor and integrity, while their counterparts were nothing less than demons. The fact that the atrocities committed by the Allies during WWII, perhaps no less heinous than those of Vietnam, pass the judgement of history almost completely ignored, prove once again that history is written by the victors. Closer to the truth is that the barbarity of war infects all parties involved, because all humans actually have the same potential for sainthood as for wickedness. War just deploys the conditions for the lack of social accountability of individual actions, where the evils of the human condition can surface and develop their full potential. Give some power to a harmless nobody and you're in for the spectacle of a vicious killing machine.

Since I was a child, always knew of wars and entering adulthood I witnessed a military operation, but back then alternative media was scarce. My first real waking up to the lies and systematic manipulation in a major conflict came with the two gulf wars and the period between them. If I had any respect for the military profession, it dissipated right there.

Besides not being a big fan of Malthusianism, I doubt that it is the masses that cannot keep themselves in peace. At least the modern sophisticated forms of war appear to be not so spontaneous, but the planned adventure and instigation of a few political leaders with the help of the media they control.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Re: Comments about killing and war by Orwell

Post by Sy Borg »

Cheers Count - and happy 2018 to you too ;)

If you look at the allied atrocities in WWII - Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden - they were disproportionate responses driven by fear. These were early examples of "shock and awe", where powerful technological weapons could force less endowed opponents into submission.

Just as society echoes nature, a new approach has evolved to counter "shock and awe", which famously failed to frighten Iraqi rebels. If your opponent does not fear death, or even the death of family and other innocents, then there's not much you can do to scare them off. As in nature, more extreme weapons spawn more extreme forms of resistance.

The planned wars you refer to are the US's wars. What of all the civil and other wars in Africa and the Middle East?
... of the 162 countries covered by the Institute for Economics and Peace’s (IEP’s) latest study, just 11 were not involved in conflict of one kind or another.

Worse still, the world as a whole has been getting incrementally less peaceful every year since 2007 – sharply bucking a trend that had seen a global move away from conflict since the end of the Second World War.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 69623.html
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Re: Comments about killing and war by Orwell

Post by Burning ghost »

I think in WWII the side of "evil" was heavily tilted in one direction. Just because good people do bad deeds it does not we should equate them with bad people doing good deeds.

People will always be driven to action. War is a very immediate way to "action". What youth does is make any "action" seem like a worthwhile one, whilst the wise pick and choose their battles carefully. Of course in youthful exuberance we all have to make decisions about where, when and how to fight (or not fight.) For this reason "war" is both inevitable and necessary. We can but hope that "war" will find a more noble medium in which human action can be brought to fruition and help the youth develop without action towards hatred and the breeding of mortal violence - I cannot really see how this can be achieved anytime soon in a manner that would do good without partly destroying the human race. So I guess we'll just have to learn how to minimize death and violence in war and manage the fallout of anger better (slowly does it though or things may blow up quickly if a new ideology is put into play to "solve the problems of war".)

By this I mean that "war", or rather conflict, is a necessary step for every individual humans development into/towards a complete being. Conflict should be encouraged and managed. Equality in this sense is something to fear and likely more dangerous than any immediate act of war. Are we heading toward an explosive release of cultural tensions or will the pressure be released slowly and steadily over time?

Physical suffering across the globe has decreased dramatically over the past few decades. Has the mental anguish also diminished though? This is a much more harder thing to measure because with death and hunger the numbers are physically apparent; the corpses pile up and disease spreads due to malnutrition, but the level of general "displeasure" is not something we really have much idea about - at least we can say that humanity is seeing itself as a global phenomenon more intimately than it ever has before, do we like what we see? If not what are the reactions to seeing the demon in the mirror or the angel? I guess we'll find out soon enough :D
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Re: Comments about killing and war by Orwell

Post by Eduk »

I'm just pointing out that I'm not privy to the full details. I expect you aren't either, but I would be very happy to be corrected.
Now my general impression of people high up in positions of power is of a profound lack of competence for the job. So I would be generally quite pessimistic.
However your PM might have credible intel which they can't share with the general public. For example look at the book bomb in my garden.
The PM may also be protecting financial interests such as oil. Blood for oil is portrayed as inherently evil but in a practical sense reality might just force your hand. For example if you have a boot over someone's face when is the right time to take it off?
My only real point is that, like you, I doubt the competency and or moral correctness of the Iraq war. But unlike you I'm not sure because I don't have enough evidence to base my belief on. I would be very happy to be presented with some compelling evidence. Personally I find accurate political news sources to be non existent.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Comments about killing and war by Orwell

Post by Count Lucanor »

Greta:

Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are perhaps the most notorious of the war crimes carried out by the Allies, but that list falls short. Here's a more complete list:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_ ... rld_War_II

Many of these accounts, like the raping of women, have very little to do with the use of weapons of mass destruction. And those which did involve such weapons, I tend to believe were motivated by a state of mind of impunity, of not being held accountable. And among the executioners there seemed to be that same rationalization that we see in Orwell: since we're already into this barbarous enterprise, let's carry it out with whatever means there are, without any contemplation for human decency and without remorse.

What you say about "shock and awe" is true, although there's more to it than the practical calculations. I'm suddenly transported to the war room in Dr. Strangelove. There's that pleasure of overpowering and crushing your enemy. Warlords are also seduced by the epic spectacle of massive explosions, the high speed mechanized hammering of ammo wiping out everything in its path, so full of testosterone. That's what you go to see at the movies: the epic beauty of battle, the poetry of tragedy and sacrifice. These guys play a game and will say everything to explain their motives, but the truth is they just love it.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Comments about killing and war by Orwell

Post by Sy Borg »

Count Lucanor wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 2:38 pmMany of these accounts, like the raping of women, have very little to do with the use of weapons of mass destruction. And those which did involve such weapons, I tend to believe were motivated by a state of mind of impunity, of not being held accountable. And among the executioners there seemed to be that same rationalization that we see in Orwell: since we're already into this barbarous enterprise, let's carry it out with whatever means there are, without any contemplation for human decency and without remorse.
I agree with you on this. Orwell seemed to have become desensitised to nuance with that statement. In real life, one atrocity does not equal any other, and bad can become worse. One should always try to soften the blow without worrying about false accusations of hypocrisy.
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