If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

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Gertie
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by Gertie »

Spiral
How can we determine whether objective morality really exists?

I will use the basketball analogy.

[....snip...]

The game of basketball may never be perfectly entertaining. But there is some set of objective basketball rules that would represent the best rules even if we mortals can never know exactly what those rules are."
Uwotm8? Shoulda gone for netball, I know those rules ;)

I get the gist tho. I agree with the point that there's in principle some best (or at least better and worse) set of rules, but only once you have set your goal.

Here you assume the goal for basketball is to be Entertaining (we don't worry about that malarkey in netball!), I was trying to suggest we don't need God in order to have a goal for Oughts. We can say 'maximising the well-being of conscious creatures' is the grounding for Oughts, and I gave my reasons why. Regardless of whether we call it Objective Morality or not. So in your analogy, 'the well'being of conscious creatures' is the equivalent of Entertaining, yeah?

How we go about achieving that goal, well then it gets complicated. Because I might value some things more than you.

But there are basic needs and desires we mostly share, and we could design rules to try to ensure we all get them. (Food, shelter, freedom of speech, a healthy environment, healthcare, education, protection against murder, violence, theft, cheaters, or whatever). And practical rules like everybody driving on the same side of the road. Then there will be some things we want, which mean sacrificing other things we want - like paying taxes to live in a society which looks after our basic needs when required. Or equal rights for women might help me, but I'd lose a bit of privilege under equal rights for all races. But by referring back to the goal of maximising everyone's well-being, I'd say yeah, fair enough we should all have a fair chance in life if we want to maximise well-being, that's a good rule.

Other stuff might not be legislated by rules, but there are less formal mechanisms, like social mores and manners, being a good neighbour, a good citizen. Then there's the influence of parents and schools, and the more subtle influence of our cultural archetypes and stories - religion, myths, fairytales, books, tv and so on.

So yes I agree, there are lots of ways to design basketball and morality codes, but first you have to know your goal and be able to justify it so that it's a goal we share - effectively treat it as objectively true that we should maximise the well-being of conscious creatures. For religions which say God is the Perfect Source of morality and the Perfect Law Giver, that means God's definition of Good is objectively perfect, true. Not like my opinion or yours. it's the perfect unquestionable truth. Likewise his rules.
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Eduk wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 2:46 am Lucky something is not moral because it is the majority expressed opinion?
No. Something is not ethical because it is the majority expressed opinion. Sorry for the confusion.
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

CIN wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 3:12 am Eduk, you took the words out of my mouth.

LuckyR, your comment on my post implies such a horrific attitude to morality and freedom of thought that I feel you must be living in some dreadful dictatorship somewhere. I hope I am wrong. If murder is wrong, it is wrong because of what it is, not because everyone around you thinks it is wrong. To believe that is to be living in the Dark Ages.
Again, as I already posted I was addressing ethics, not morality (obviously, but to say it out loud). To be plain, individuals are of course free to think their own thoughts, though as members of their communities they are de facto subject to community opinions. Naturally, they are free to feel that their crimes are morally OK, as they pay for their breach of ethical standards.
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Eduk
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by Eduk »

I always thought ethics and morals were the same thing, I certainly use the words interchangeably. After a quick google it seems they can mean different things (say in some precise legal case, like workplace ethics) but are usually used interchangeably. I wasn't at all clear on your intended meaning, but it's nice to learn something.
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Eduk wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 11:48 am I always thought ethics and morals were the same thing, I certainly use the words interchangeably. After a quick google it seems they can mean different things (say in some precise legal case, like workplace ethics) but are usually used interchangeably. I wasn't at all clear on your intended meaning, but it's nice to learn something.
You are, of course accurate that in common conversation they are used interchangeably, though here many try to clarify as much as possible, given the limitations of the medium.
"As usual... it depends."
CIN
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by CIN »

LuckyR wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 11:38 am
CIN wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 3:12 am Eduk, you took the words out of my mouth.

LuckyR, your comment on my post implies such a horrific attitude to morality and freedom of thought that I feel you must be living in some dreadful dictatorship somewhere. I hope I am wrong. If murder is wrong, it is wrong because of what it is, not because everyone around you thinks it is wrong. To believe that is to be living in the Dark Ages.
Again, as I already posted I was addressing ethics, not morality (obviously, but to say it out loud). To be plain, individuals are of course free to think their own thoughts, though as members of their communities they are de facto subject to community opinions. Naturally, they are free to feel that their crimes are morally OK, as they pay for their breach of ethical standards.
No, I do not understand this. But then, I did not understand (or, if I did understand it, I disagreed with it) your earlier assertion that 'If a god decrees that murder is wrong, then murder is empirically wrong... for believers of that religion. OTOH, if you don't believe in god, murder is still wrong. Just not empirically wrong, rather wrong by consensus (of the community that the individual belongs to).' As for your conclusion that 'Bottom line, murder is wrong for every modern human,' I took this to be a statement of your own moral view. I still don't see any other way to take it.

I am forced to infer that your way of expressing yourself on these issues is opaque to me. Mea culpa, possibly. But that doesn't help.
Spiral
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by Spiral »

CIN wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 7:31 pm OTOH, if you don't believe in god, murder is still wrong. Just not empirically wrong, rather wrong by consensus (of the community that the individual belongs to).'
But this isn't the only option for a non-believer in God, right? I can picture someone concluding that murder is wrong even as a community believes otherwise.

This gets to the question: Is an individual human being capable of making murder wrong simply by asserting that murder is wrong? Is God capable or making murder wrong simply by asserting that murder is wrong?

Imagine God saying, "Murder is wrong!"

For one, since murder is usually defined as wrongful killing, saying murder is wrong is similar to saying wrongful killing is wrong. Well, of course wrongful killing is wrong. But that begs the question of which killings are wrong and which killings are to be tolerated.

Also, imagine someone responding to God's, "Murder is Wrong!" statement with, "I disagree." How do we resolve the disagreement? Must we conclude that God is always correct? Why or why not?
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by Eduk »

I think the problem is that the claim that 'that is just your opinion' is thought of as being so unreasonable that it must immediately be fixed. It's the equivalent of saying there is a hole in your roof and it's raining. Whereas in reality it is the equivalent of saying your roof may need remedial work in the next ten to twenty years depending.
Spiral the option that is being missed off is the option that you are an ethical agent capable of making ethical judgement.
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CIN
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by CIN »

Spiral wrote: May 4th, 2018, 5:06 am Also, imagine someone responding to God's, "Murder is Wrong!" statement with, "I disagree." How do we resolve the disagreement? Must we conclude that God is always correct? Why or why not?
Yes, God is always correct. He is omniscient, which means he knows the truth about everything and the answer to every question. And he is perfectly good, which means that he would not mislead us on such an important issue. So the way to find out if murder is wrong is to ask God. And in fact he already answered the question by telling us 'Thou shalt not kill.'

All of which is unhelpful if he doesn't exist.
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
CIN
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by CIN »

Spiral wrote: April 29th, 2018, 6:16 pm What if God endorsed murder? Would that automatically make murder right instead of wrong?
I think it would make God indistinguishable from the Devil.
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by Thinking critical »

Gods and devils are not necessary to the dichotomy of what is right or wrong, they are simply ontological projections of individuals own ideologies. When one wants to assert a higher ground such as "murder is wrong" the idea of a god becomes a useful tool to communities which all share a common belief in gods.
Why would one even need gods to decide what is right or wrong when humans are quite capable of deciding themselves? Furthermore people still do acts even though they themselves believe it is wrong. So we could just as easily ask would people still murder, if they believed in heaven or hell? The answer of course is "yes", demonstrating even in the presence of god based philosophies/ideaologies, acts which the believer asserts is objectively wrong are still carried out.
The difference between a religious approach and humane approach to morality gives us a clue as to which is the more reasonable; religion defines morality as objectively true under the dictatorship of god who uses punishment and reward, furthermore there is very little if any accountability of the origin of such morals - where did they come from, how were they communicated and do we know if the answer to those 2 questions is true?
The humane approach is much more complicated but is also more relevant in the sense it evolves as our species gains wisdom. Essentially most humans to a certain degree concur that pain, suffering and the act of intentionally killing someone who does not want to be killed is wrong. It is this common ground which we can build from which will inevitably demonstrate humane morality is far more superior than a gods.
Something is wrong because we feel and believe it's wrong, not because we're told its wrong.

Simply put, humans invent gods then decide what the god they invented commands to be right or wrong, then they argue that we can't know what is right or wrong without the God which they invented.
The argument makes no sense, if you delete the gods the morals are still there and nothing else changes.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
Spiral
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by Spiral »

CIN wrote: May 4th, 2018, 8:47 am
Spiral wrote: May 4th, 2018, 5:06 am Also, imagine someone responding to God's, "Murder is Wrong!" statement with, "I disagree." How do we resolve the disagreement? Must we conclude that God is always correct? Why or why not?
Yes, God is always correct. He is omniscient, which means he knows the truth about everything and the answer to every question. And he is perfectly good, which means that he would not mislead us on such an important issue. So the way to find out if murder is wrong is to ask God. And in fact he already answered the question by telling us 'Thou shalt not kill.'

All of which is unhelpful if he doesn't exist.
In the Bible God commands that a man who gathered wood on the Sabbath be killed (stoned to death). Also, God commanded the Israelites to kill entire populations of human beings, including women and children.

So, if God is always correct, does this mean that killing is simultaneously right and wrong?

Or does God command that some killing is to be tolerated or even celebrated in some cases, while killing in other circumstances God commands that we not kill? Does God subscribe to situational ethics?
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

CIN wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 7:31 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 11:38 am

Again, as I already posted I was addressing ethics, not morality (obviously, but to say it out loud). To be plain, individuals are of course free to think their own thoughts, though as members of their communities they are de facto subject to community opinions. Naturally, they are free to feel that their crimes are morally OK, as they pay for their breach of ethical standards.
No, I do not understand this. But then, I did not understand (or, if I did understand it, I disagreed with it) your earlier assertion that 'If a god decrees that murder is wrong, then murder is empirically wrong... for believers of that religion. OTOH, if you don't believe in god, murder is still wrong. Just not empirically wrong, rather wrong by consensus (of the community that the individual belongs to).' As for your conclusion that 'Bottom line, murder is wrong for every modern human,' I took this to be a statement of your own moral view. I still don't see any other way to take it.

I am forced to infer that your way of expressing yourself on these issues is opaque to me. Mea culpa, possibly. But that doesn't help.
I believe you understood me just fine and you disagree with my conclusion (which of course is fine). One problem this thread has is the too blunt and inaccurate wording used (such as "wrong").

I am basically pointing out that since there are many perspectives: a god's (as leader of a religion), an individual's (the one you seem to feel is paramount) and the community's (which is the most practical, but commonly the most ignored in Philosophical circles).

While your green statement is my moral view, that was not my point rather that since we are all both individuals and members of communities (and some are also members of religions), regardless of our personal morality, we are all subject to community ethical standards and since basically all Modern communities have decreed that murder is "wrong", that everyone is at least subject to that ethical standard, regardless if their personal morality has decided that murder is wrong or not wrong.
"As usual... it depends."
CIN
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by CIN »

Spiral wrote: May 4th, 2018, 4:53 pm
Or does God command that some killing is to be tolerated or even celebrated in some cases, while killing in other circumstances God commands that we not kill? Does God subscribe to situational ethics?
It looks that way to me.
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
CIN
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Re: If there is no God, murder isn't wrong?

Post by CIN »

LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2018, 6:29 pm
While your green statement is my moral view, that was not my point rather that since we are all both individuals and members of communities (and some are also members of religions), regardless of our personal morality, we are all subject to community ethical standards and since basically all Modern communities have decreed that murder is "wrong", that everyone is at least subject to that ethical standard, regardless if their personal morality has decided that murder is wrong or not wrong.
It sounds to me as if you are simply saying that everyone in modern society is subjected to peer pressure to consider murder wrong. Well, of course that would depend on your definition of 'murder'. Is meat murder? I'm a vegetarian, so I tend to think it is; but if so, then there is little such pressure against this kind of murder in most modern societies, because most people in modern societies condone and collaborate with this particular kind of murder. Is abortion murder? I tend to think it is if the foetus has developed far enough to become conscious, but not if it hasn't, but some people think all abortion is murder. And so on. Murder to one person is not necessarily murder to another, and I think the whole issue is too complex to allow us to simply say, as you did, that murder is wrong for every modern human.
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
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