Is Suicide Immoral?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias »

ThomasHobbes wrote: May 11th, 2018, 5:58 am
I assume you mean heaven in this statement.
Considered it; settled on haven as secular and more apt in the context.
"Support" and paying attention ought to mean respecting the wish of others to be able to end their lives.
Absolutely. I believe I've established my position on that.
But a support structure would also prevent unnecessary suicides, through intervention in adolescent crises, alleviation of anxiety and stress in family relations*, bullying and shaming, substance abuse, gambling, abandonment and loneliness in old age, curable illness, repairable injury and all kinds of fixable problems that people can't face on their own.

*One category of suicide we haven't considered is a quite common one: the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Alias wrote: May 11th, 2018, 11:30 am
*One category of suicide we haven't considered is a quite common one: the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.
That's not suicide; it's murder. Murder by support network.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias »

ThomasHobbes wrote: May 11th, 2018, 11:53 am [ the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.]

That's not suicide; it's murder. Murder by support network.
What do you mean murder by support network? Surely, it happens, rather for lack of a support network.
Technically, it's murder-suicide, even if the murderee is a terminally ill spouse who wants to die and is incapable of carrying out an unassisted suicide, or a horribly damaged child, sentenced by society to suffer until the age of majority.
User avatar
NasloxiehRorsxez
New Trial Member
Posts: 11
Joined: March 28th, 2018, 9:21 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by NasloxiehRorsxez »

ThomasHobbes wrote: May 10th, 2018, 5:13 am
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote: May 9th, 2018, 11:04 pm

hm, well I think you could argue that in the case of suicide as opposed to other ways of dying. There's a sense of possibility that whatever mental issues or mindset of the suicidal individual could have changed, and was preventable.

I don't really think it's the same with terminal illness, accidents, murder, etc.
But you have argued your case against suicide on the basis of the family suffering. Since you agree that that suffering is inevitable and unavoidable what is NOW your argument?
Since the suffering is going to happen at some point why not get it out of the way?
Death is not ultimately preventable.
It seems to me that your argument (such as it remains) would put unnecessary guilt upon the 'suicider' to forebear on the relief of his own suffering, and also condemn the family to continue to suffer the problems of the 'suicider'.

Suicide is not the same as "terminal illness, accidents, murder, etc.", but neither are they the same as each other. But when it comes to the loss of a relative/friend I do not see suicide as necessarily anything more suffer inducing that any of the others.
For example a person murdered can make the family suffer for generations. In this case at least suicide is less painful, being a conscious decision. Terminal illness which is possibly the most likely outcome of NOT suiciding, make the family suffer more, than suicide not less.
So I fail to see what your objection is.
Death is inevitable, but not the circumstances in which we die are.

How the others mentioned differ from suicide by mental problems or illness is that they more objective in their outcomes (terminal illness, cancer, etc) or that generally, they were far more subject to chance (Accidents, murder). Thus, they are less preventable. (Assuming a sufferer or mental illness or issues has access to help)

It's true that you could go on living miserably with mental illness or issues in spite of doing everything you can to the best of your ability, it's also true that something could also work and make life worth living to the sufferer.

Also, @Alias. That's a good question. It depends on the context I would think, you have to take into account the patient's attitude, the physicians competence, communication between the two. But ultimately, priority should go to the patient.

Here's a few other question for you guys, in cases of suicidal ideation due to mental illness or issues, how can we ensure the least amount of suffering to those affected by it?

Also, how would you justify suicide by mental illness or issues in a utilitarian sense?

Lastly, if you guys have heard of Antinatalism, do you think advocating suicide weakens that philosophical position?

Correct me if im misrepresenting these two positions.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Alias wrote: May 11th, 2018, 1:24 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote: May 11th, 2018, 11:53 am [ the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.]

That's not suicide; it's murder. Murder by support network.
What do you mean murder by support network? Surely, it happens, rather for lack of a support network.
Technically, it's murder-suicide, even if the murderee is a terminally ill spouse who wants to die and is incapable of carrying out an unassisted suicide, or a horribly damaged child, sentenced by society to suffer until the age of majority.
What I mean is that if a man kills his entire family that is ;
1) Not suicide, but murder. There is NO 'technicality'. he's a murdered who also kills himself- that does not make it mass suicide.
2) The family is the support; hence my closing comment.

In the western world I doubt this really happens as you suggest. It's more to do with pig headed selfishness, in a sociopathic murderer.
Please do not change the goal posts. You were not talking about euthanasia in your example.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias »

ThomasHobbes wrote: May 11th, 2018, 4:08 pm 1) Not suicide, but murder. There is NO 'technicality'. he's a murdered who also kills himself- that does not make it mass suicide.
I didn't say mass suicide. I said murder - suicide. Both. There may be other guilt suicides, as well: people who were not punished by the law for atrocities committed in war, or political upheaval, or in criminal activity, such as an abduction, or a perverse need to molest children - that the perpetrator cannot bear to live with. Killing oneself is always suicide, regardless of what preceded it.
2) The family is the support; hence my closing comment.
It evidently wasn't.
In the western world I doubt this really happens as you suggest.
Far more frequently than you'd imagine. Typically, the man had been a poor husband and father; the woman left him, taking the children, and moved to a shelter or her parents' home. The man broods, drinks, broods; builds up an unsupportable load of bitter resentment and self-pity; buys a gun, finds the wife and kills everyone in the house.
In other cases, the parent kills the children to spare them a worse fate, or a more painful death. The world can be a very, very dark place.
Even in the prosperous, enlightened western industrial nations, it's not a bed of roses for everyone.
Please do not change the goal posts. You were not talking about euthanasia in your example.
Euthanasia is one example. I know of several actual cases (the most famous being Arthur and Cynthia Koestler) where the healthy spouse took her or his own life, rather than allow a terminal patient to suffer any longer, and didn't want to face the degradation of legal punishment for helping them.
There are all kinds of examples.
Everyone who decides to end their own life has a reason, though we don't necessarily agree with other people's reasons.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Alias wrote: May 11th, 2018, 4:53 pm
This is the example we were talking about before you changed the goal posts.

the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.


It's pointless if you argue against my comments based on some other example.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias »

ThomasHobbes wrote: May 11th, 2018, 5:14 pm This is the example we were talking about before you changed the goal posts.
What goal posts? I didn't even know there was a football game.
I was merely expressing opinions and citing situations wherein people kill themselves.

As to the murder-suicide, in the context was that a robust social support structure would prevent unnecessary suicides, of the types I then go on to mention.
But a support structure would also prevent unnecessary suicides, through intervention in adolescent crises, alleviation of anxiety and stress in family relations*.[ bullying and shaming, substance abuse, gambling, abandonment and loneliness in old age, curable illness, repairable injury and all kinds of fixable problems that people can't face on their own] *One category of suicide we haven't considered is a quite common one:
"the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties."
I don't see your problem.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias »

Sorry, I overlooked this post earlier.
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote: May 11th, 2018, 2:57 pm It's true that you could go on living miserably with mental illness or issues in spite of doing everything you can to the best of your ability, it's also true that something could also work and make life worth living to the sufferer.
Which is why I suggested a case-by-case judgment. This is not a moral question: for some people, help is available and effective; for others, it is not. They alone can decide whether the life they have is worth continuing.
Here's a few other question for you guys, in cases of suicidal ideation due to mental illness or issues, how can we ensure the least amount of suffering to those affected by it?
Excellent universal comprehensive health care. Vigilant teachers to catch developing problems early. Caring friends.
Also, how would you justify suicide by mental illness or issues in a utilitarian sense?
Sick people cost more - in material resources, in lost productivity, stress on the family and community - than dead people.
But the mandate here is not to justify anything.
Lastly, if you guys have heard of Antinatalism, do you think advocating suicide weakens that philosophical position?
I have only a vague idea what they advocate, beyond refraining from reproduction.
IOW - don't know
User avatar
NasloxiehRorsxez
New Trial Member
Posts: 11
Joined: March 28th, 2018, 9:21 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by NasloxiehRorsxez »

Alias wrote: May 11th, 2018, 7:03 pm Sorry, I overlooked this post earlier.
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote: May 11th, 2018, 2:57 pm It's true that you could go on living miserably with mental illness or issues in spite of doing everything you can to the best of your ability, it's also true that something could also work and make life worth living to the sufferer.
Which is why I suggested a case-by-case judgment. This is not a moral question: for some people, help is available and effective; for others, it is not. They alone can decide whether the life they have is worth continuing.
Here's a few other question for you guys, in cases of suicidal ideation due to mental illness or issues, how can we ensure the least amount of suffering to those affected by it?
Excellent universal comprehensive health care. Vigilant teachers to catch developing problems early. Caring friends.
Also, how would you justify suicide by mental illness or issues in a utilitarian sense?
Sick people cost more - in material resources, in lost productivity, stress on the family and community - than dead people.
But the mandate here is not to justify anything.
Lastly, if you guys have heard of Antinatalism, do you think advocating suicide weakens that philosophical position?
I have only a vague idea what they advocate, beyond refraining from reproduction.
IOW - don't know
Why should the mandate here be to not justify anything?

I agree regarding the utilitarian perspective. However, I think the point becomes null if family or friends disagree with suicide being an option. Yes, it is selfish on their part I agree. But you could say the same for the suicide.

And you don't think there's any case in which this could be considered a moral question? Suppose one has access to treatment, people they care for, yet they refuse treatment and commit suicide. Shouldn't people at least attempt to improve their situation before calling it quits? If you agree with that, then when has someone "done enough" to try and improve their situation for suicide to be the most rational option? Of course, I don't really know how often these scenarios occur in real life.

Also, Greta mentioned something important. Many of these cases tend to be a lapse in judgement, I absolutely agree, and I don't fault anyone for that at all. But I don't think that removes morality from the question. For instance, let's say someone with mental illness murders someone, with that mental illness being the direct of the murder. I'd say that removes malevolence form the act, but does it make the action any less wrong? (Also, they hypothetical is not intended to be an accurate representation of anything, really)
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias »

NasloxiehRorsxez wrote: May 15th, 2018, 3:06 pm Why should the mandate here be to not justify anything?
The question was: Do you think it's immoral?
Asking for an opinion. We all have our reasons for deciding one way or the other, but none of us in a position to make the dead answer for whatever we disagree with. When the majority of law-makers obeyed church doctrine, suicide was illegal. But they could never punish suicide; they could only punish the surviving relatives - and of course they could punish failure.
However, I think the point becomes null if family or friends disagree with suicide being an option. Yes, it is selfish on their part I agree. But you could say the same for the suicide.
Everybody's selfish. This is hardly news. In this case, if the would-be suicide bends to the pro-survival camp, he is punished for his unselfishness in refraining, but the family is rewarded for its selfishness. That looks uneven to me.
And you don't think there's any case in which this could be considered a moral question?
As I said: it is for the religious. It may be, for someone who made a promise or undertook the care of dependents, and they are still capable of carrying out their duties. In such a case, abandonment by death is the same as abandonment by running away.
Suppose one has access to treatment, people they care for, yet they refuse treatment and commit suicide. Shouldn't people at least attempt to improve their situation before calling it quits?
They usually do. Most people prefer to live, and do so, long after their life is no longer worth living. The persons who kill themselves on a whim, when they have better alternatives, must be a very small minority, and I'm not sure we can understand their motivation well enough to judge.

Where does the "should" come from? Who - if not the owner of the life - has the authority to make the ultimate value judgment?
If you agree with that, then when has someone "done enough" to try and improve their situation for suicide to be the most rational option?
When they deem that they have done enough. Nobody else knows.
For instance, let's say someone with mental illness murders someone, with that mental illness being the direct of the murder. I'd say that removes malevolence form the act, but does it make the action any less wrong?
It does in law. Diminished capacity to assess the act being committed, or inability to understand the consequences, is an accepted defense.
So is inability to see an alternative- as in self-defense.
But these are very different situations. We can categorically deny anyone's right to end another person's life (except officially, if convicted of a capital offence - and I don't condone that, either), on the grounds of their autonomy. By the same token, I categorically deny anyone's right to force me to live, on the grounds of my autonomy.
Dissimulation
Posts: 37
Joined: March 23rd, 2017, 12:38 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation »

it's not a group activity, it's foolish to presuppose an individuals self identical state and suffering as being subject to comprehension by any other. if only because judgement is made by one unexperienced in death. more so, Seems unlikely the dead concern themselves with the discourse of the living. social and theological judgements are irrelevant for the dead are free from consequences. I contend it's a self identical 'ethical' determination subject to the unique comprehension and condition of the individual. does it matter? such suffering is likely to disinterest the soon to be dead.
Dissimulation
Posts: 37
Joined: March 23rd, 2017, 12:38 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation »

* possible group activity, avoid the cool aide.
Dissimulation
Posts: 37
Joined: March 23rd, 2017, 12:38 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation »

Dissimulation wrote: July 11th, 2018, 8:37 am it's not a group activity, it's foolish to presuppose an individuals self identical state and suffering as being subject to comprehension by any other. if only because judgement is made by one unexperienced in death. more so, Seems unlikely the dead concern themselves with the discourse of the living. social and theological judgements are irrelevant for the dead are free from consequences. I contend it's a self identical 'ethical' determination subject to the unique comprehension and condition of the individual. does it matter? such suffering is likely to avert one away from armchair discussions.
Dissimulation
Posts: 37
Joined: March 23rd, 2017, 12:38 pm

Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation »

Dissimulation wrote: July 11th, 2018, 8:37 am it's not a group activity, it's foolish to presuppose an individuals self identical state and suffering as being subject to comprehension by any other. if only because judgement is made by one unexperienced in death. more so, Seems unlikely the dead concern themselves with the discourse of the living. social and theological judgements are irrelevant for the dead are free from consequences. I contend it's a self identical 'ethical' determination subject to the unique comprehension and condition of the individual. does it matter? such suffering is likely to avert one away from armchair discussions.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021