An objection to the Golden Rule

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 1453
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by Belindi » May 15th, 2018, 6:36 am

Thomas Hobbes wrote:
There is NO warrant in the Golden Rule to impose your moral standards on another; to castigate another for their views; nor to prevent another making the choices they want about their own life. To do so would be to invite another to do that to you.
But if a GR supporter sees a vulnerable person being oppressed, tortured, bullied, or exploited there is good reason to impose better moral standards upon the oppressor, torturer, bully or exploiter. I also permit others to impose those better moral standards upon me and others to the most of our ability.

Castigating another for their views is useful when for instance a judge sums up after a criminal trial. Some views are so dangerous and immoral that we don't permit them to be communicated in any way.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 940
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 15th, 2018, 6:40 am

Belindi wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:36 am
Thomas Hobbes wrote:
There is NO warrant in the Golden Rule to impose your moral standards on another; to castigate another for their views; nor to prevent another making the choices they want about their own life. To do so would be to invite another to do that to you.
But if a GR supporter sees a vulnerable person being oppressed, tortured, bullied, or exploited there is good reason to impose better moral standards upon the oppressor, torturer, bully or exploiter. I also permit others to impose those better moral standards upon me and others to the most of our ability.

Castigating another for their views is useful when for instance a judge sums up after a criminal trial. Some views are so dangerous and immoral that we don't permit them to be communicated in any way.
No.
It gives warrant to assist, as you would want to assist. It does not give warrant to impose, as that gives warrant for another to impose on you.

Castigation might be useful. But is not permitted by the GR unless you also invite it upon yourself.

Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 1453
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by Belindi » May 15th, 2018, 6:46 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:40 am
Belindi wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:36 am
Thomas Hobbes wrote:



But if a GR supporter sees a vulnerable person being oppressed, tortured, bullied, or exploited there is good reason to impose better moral standards upon the oppressor, torturer, bully or exploiter. I also permit others to impose those better moral standards upon me and others to the most of our ability.

Castigating another for their views is useful when for instance a judge sums up after a criminal trial. Some views are so dangerous and immoral that we don't permit them to be communicated in any way.
No.
It gives warrant to assist, as you would want to assist. It does not give warrant to impose, as that gives warrant for another to impose on you.

Castigation might be useful. But is not permitted by the GR unless you also invite it upon yourself.
I want and require that I am subject to a moral code that I agree with. I expect to be castigated if I infringe the moral code to which I have agreed to subscribe.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 940
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 15th, 2018, 8:50 am

Belindi wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:46 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:40 am


No.
It gives warrant to assist, as you would want to assist. It does not give warrant to impose, as that gives warrant for another to impose on you.

Castigation might be useful. But is not permitted by the GR unless you also invite it upon yourself.
I want and require that I am subject to a moral code that I agree with. I expect to be castigated if I infringe the moral code to which I have agreed to subscribe.
But that would be fine when you are castigated by a person who shares your moral code, as you both have accepted the same rule.
You would resent it, and rightly so, if a person with a different moral code castigated you for something you did not accept? That being the case you do not have the right, to castigate another who does not share your code, if you want to appeal to the golden rule.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 940
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 15th, 2018, 8:51 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 8:50 am
Belindi wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:46 am


I want and require that I am subject to a moral code that I agree with. I expect to be castigated if I infringe the moral code to which I have agreed to subscribe.
But that would be fine when you are castigated by a person who shares your moral code, as you both have accepted the same rule.
You would resent it, and rightly so, if a person with a different moral code castigated you for something you did not accept? That being the case you do not have the right, to castigate another who does not share your code, if you want to appeal to the golden rule.
QED. The golden rule works if you think it through.

mattfara50
Posts: 50
Joined: April 28th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by mattfara50 » May 15th, 2018, 12:02 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:06 am
There is NO warrant in the Golden Rule ... to prevent another making the choices they want about their own life.
Then I'll ask you again: does the GR warrant the rearing of children? See below:

From ThomasHobbes:
....the subject is not qualified to apply any judgement upon others, lest they do the same.

My response:
Lastly, do you think that disciplining children violates the GR? If not, then when a parent judges the behavior of a child and then attempts to shape the child's behavior, what criteria permit this kind of judgment? How does it differ from the Christian who, putatively motivated by love and compassion, acts in opposition to LGBT people?

mattfara50
Posts: 50
Joined: April 28th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by mattfara50 » May 15th, 2018, 12:04 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:40 am
No.
It gives warrant to assist, as you would want to assist. It does not give warrant to impose, as that gives warrant for another to impose on you.

Castigation might be useful. But is not permitted by the GR unless you also invite it upon yourself.
Does the GR assume moral relativism in your interpretation?

mattfara50
Posts: 50
Joined: April 28th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by mattfara50 » May 15th, 2018, 12:10 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 8:51 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 8:50 am


But that would be fine when you are castigated by a person who shares your moral code, as you both have accepted the same rule.
You would resent it, and rightly so, if a person with a different moral code castigated you for something you did not accept? That being the case you do not have the right, to castigate another who does not share your code, if you want to appeal to the golden rule.
QED. The golden rule works if you think it through.
I'm struggling to see how a society could function were the GR as you interpret it expanded in scope. Does it warrant self defense or is it absolutely pacific? Does it deny the authority of parenthood? The authority of government?

Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 1453
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by Belindi » May 15th, 2018, 1:14 pm

I guess that Thomas Hobbes supports cultural relativism or moral relativism.

Cultural Relativism
Cultural relativism is the principle of regarding the beliefs, values, and practices of a culture from the viewpoint of that culture itself. Originating in the work of Franz Boas in the early 20th century, cultural relativism has greatly influenced social sciences such as anthropology. In sociology, the principle is sometimes practiced to avoid cultural bias in research, as well as to avoid judging another culture by the standards of one's own culture. For this reason, cultural relativism has been considered an attempt to avoid ethnocentrism. Cultural relativism is related to but often distinguished from moral relativism, the view that morality is relative to a standard, especially a cultural standard.


Cultural relativism and moral relativism are related in the sense that myths and world view influence ethics and morality. For instance the myth and world view of the Biblical creation and the myth of the Ten Commandments narrate how God made moral rules from nothing similarly to how he made the physical world from nothing.

I'm not ethnocentric but Marxist and socialist and I believe that class struggles are active and come to define a nation. Some cultures are better than others. Socialist cultures are better than cultures of rampant capitalism.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 940
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 16th, 2018, 5:19 pm

mattfara50 wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 12:02 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:06 am
There is NO warrant in the Golden Rule ... to prevent another making the choices they want about their own life.
Then I'll ask you again: does the GR warrant the rearing of children?
No.
Nor does it warrant the making of cheese.
But for those that rear children it would recommend that parents apply the same respect to their children, that were the parents children they would hope to enjoy from their parents.

mattfara50
Posts: 50
Joined: April 28th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by mattfara50 » May 16th, 2018, 10:50 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 5:19 pm
But for those that rear children it would recommend that parents apply the same respect to their children, that were the parents children they would hope to enjoy from their parents.
You clearly wrote that the GR does not warrant the judging of others. However, parenting requires judgment. By your logic, the GR would prevent parenting. However, many children don't want to be judged, but it is assumed generally that the parent has wisdom enough to impose such judgment on the child. There is an asymmetry in that relationship for which a subtler interpretation of the GR allows; and thus comes the possibility of other asymmetries between people. If objective moral values exist and an individual happens to know some or all of them, wouldn't that person harbor the authority to exercise judgment upon others? It seems to me that the GR denies objective morals. The GR is thus self defeating (at least your interpretation of it is).

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 940
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 17th, 2018, 4:37 am

mattfara50 wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 10:50 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 5:19 pm
But for those that rear children it would recommend that parents apply the same respect to their children, that were the parents children they would hope to enjoy from their parents.
You clearly wrote that the GR does not warrant the judging of others. However, parenting requires judgment. By your logic, the GR would prevent parenting. However, many children don't want to be judged, but it is assumed generally that the parent has wisdom enough to impose such judgment on the child. There is an asymmetry in that relationship for which a subtler interpretation of the GR allows; and thus comes the possibility of other asymmetries between people. If objective moral values exist and an individual happens to know some or all of them, wouldn't that person harbor the authority to exercise judgment upon others? It seems to me that the GR denies objective morals. The GR is thus self defeating (at least your interpretation of it is).
You are confusing yourself.
The GR is about judging yourself and your actions, not judging others against yourself. It does not give you a licence to impose yourself on others.
It is concerned with your actions, and that your action to others is consistent with how you would have other act upon you.
When a parent chastises their child they have already failed the GR, since no parent would want to be chastised.

Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 1453
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by Belindi » May 17th, 2018, 5:17 am

Thomas Hobbes wrote:
When a parent chastises their child they have already failed the GR, since no parent would want to be chastised.
But I am a parent, and if I did something wrong in my parenting I'd want to be chastised by somebody else who knows more than I do. Wise parents are not so set in their ways that they won't accept advice and further education.

You use the word 'chastise' though and not 'advise'. Those bear different connotations. The erring parent should not, according to the GR, be blamed but should be taught to see reason. I.e. education not retribution.

mattfara50
Posts: 50
Joined: April 28th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by mattfara50 » May 17th, 2018, 12:11 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 4:37 am
It is concerned with your actions, and that your action to others is consistent with how you would have other act upon you.
Thus when the zealot considers whether to dissuade homosexual activity, she asks whether she'd want someone to dissuade her from "sinful" activity. She deems sinful activity to be universally harmful, and therefore she helps the homosexual avoid harm through her dissuasion irrespective of the homosexual's opinions. Inasmuch as she considers herself to be in possession of or a purveyor of wisdom the homosexual is not privy to or following, she assumes the asymmetry similar to the parent-child relationship.

As per the child-parent relationship, I am not using the word "judge" to mean "chastise." Rather, it means "assess," like one might assess how well a child, about to walk into traffic, is meeting the goal of continued survival; or like one might assess how well a child is reaching the goal of acting normally in their culture upon viewing the child shriek in a quiet library. In the same way, the zealot "judges" the homosexual on how well they are approaching God with respect to their homosexual activity, support of pro-LGBT legislation, etc.

Let's stop equivocating on that now, please. Despite how extraordinarily frustrating the zealot might be vis a vis modern society and freedom, it isn't fair to assume that all zealots are castigating homosexuals. It is possible to be misguided and not malevolent.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 940
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 17th, 2018, 3:15 pm

mattfara50 wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 12:11 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 4:37 am
It is concerned with your actions, and that your action to others is consistent with how you would have other act upon you.
Thus when the zealot considers whether to dissuade homosexual activity, she asks whether she'd want someone to dissuade her from "sinful" activity. She deems sinful activity to be universally harmful, and therefore she helps the homosexual avoid harm through her dissuasion irrespective of the homosexual's opinions. Inasmuch as she considers herself to be in possession of or a purveyor of wisdom the homosexual is not privy to.
And when the homosexual tells the zealot to "stfu and respect my decisions about my life, and mind your own business', the zealot has to stfu as he would expect others to respect decision about his life too.

Otherwise the zealot is breaking the GR.

Post Reply