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Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 17th, 2018, 9:41 pm
by mattfara50
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 3:15 pm
Otherwise the zealot is breaking the GR.
So? That's a separate scenario that skirts the issue I'm trying to elaborate.

Do you think that the GR presupposes moral relativism?

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 18th, 2018, 4:08 am
by ThomasHobbes
mattfara50 wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 9:41 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 3:15 pm
Otherwise the zealot is breaking the GR.
So? That's a separate scenario that skirts the issue I'm trying to elaborate.

Do you think that the GR presupposes moral relativism?
It is what it is. It does not presuppose the making of cheese, nor trips to the moon.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 23rd, 2018, 9:46 pm
by mattfara50
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 4:37 am
The GR ... does not give you a licence to impose yourself on others.
Then how can one parent a child? Please address this point that I've repeatedly put to you.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 24th, 2018, 4:55 am
by ThomasHobbes
mattfara50 wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 9:46 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 4:37 am
The GR ... does not give you a licence to impose yourself on others.
Then how can one parent a child? Please address this point that I've repeatedly put to you.
I've already answered.
Parents who use the GR parent their child as they would have wanted to be parented. That does not give licence to impose your moral standards of people who are not your chattle.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 24th, 2018, 5:58 am
by Belindi
ThomasHobbes endorsed:
Parents who use the GR parent their child as they would have wanted to be parented. That does not give licence to impose your moral standards of people who are not your chattle.
Some parents are not very good at parenting and some parents cannot say what was right or wrong with how their own parents' parented them.
As always reason, which is composed of judgement and knowledge and sometimes logic, plus universalisability is the criterion under which the GR is meaningful.

"As they would have wanted to be parented" is not safe, as some people are very unreasoning and others are downright mad.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 24th, 2018, 5:22 pm
by mattfara50
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 4:55 am
mattfara50 wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 9:46 pm


Then how can one parent a child? Please address this point that I've repeatedly put to you.
I've already answered.
Parents who use the GR parent their child as they would have wanted to be parented. That does not give licence to impose your moral standards of people who are not your chattle.
You seem to be missing my point, ThomasHobbes. If a parent is parenting a child, the parent is imposing their will on the child. You state that the GR does not warrant such a thing. On what grounds is parenting an exception? Please clarify.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 24th, 2018, 5:27 pm
by ThomasHobbes
mattfara50 wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:22 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 4:55 am

I've already answered.
Parents who use the GR parent their child as they would have wanted to be parented. That does not give licence to impose your moral standards of people who are not your chattle.
You seem to be missing my point, ThomasHobbes. If a parent is parenting a child, the parent is imposing their will on the child. You state that the GR does not warrant such a thing. On what grounds is parenting an exception? Please clarify.
I've answered this twice.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 24th, 2018, 5:37 pm
by mattfara50
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:27 pm
mattfara50 wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:22 pm


You seem to be missing my point, ThomasHobbes. If a parent is parenting a child, the parent is imposing their will on the child. You state that the GR does not warrant such a thing. On what grounds is parenting an exception? Please clarify.
I've answered this twice.
To use your logic, the GR would warrant this because the parent would necessarily parent as he or she would want to be parented, despite the child's own will. The child might be utterly ill at ease with the parenting that his parent imposes, however, even if the parent would genuinely want to be parented as such. Again, please explain why the child is not protected from this imposition, as you insist others are.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 24th, 2018, 5:39 pm
by ThomasHobbes
mattfara50 wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:37 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:27 pm


I've answered this twice.
To use your logic, the GR would warrant this because the parent would necessarily parent as he or she would want to be parented, despite the child's own will. The child might be utterly ill at ease with the parenting that his parent imposes, however, even if the parent would genuinely want to be parented as such. Again, please explain why the child is not protected from this imposition, as you insist others are.
You all ready said that. I told you the answer.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 24th, 2018, 8:03 pm
by mattfara50
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:39 pm
mattfara50 wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:37 pm


To use your logic, the GR would warrant this because the parent would necessarily parent as he or she would want to be parented, despite the child's own will. The child might be utterly ill at ease with the parenting that his parent imposes, however, even if the parent would genuinely want to be parented as such. Again, please explain why the child is not protected from this imposition, as you insist others are.
You all ready said that. I told you the answer.
OK. I am perhaps a bit dense today (or usually). Please point me to the exact post in which you answered this. You can give me the date/time stamp, etc. Whatever is easiest for you.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 25th, 2018, 8:45 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Belindi wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 5:58 am
"As they would have wanted to be parented" is not safe, as some people are very unreasoning and others are downright mad.
I have a double reaction to this argument. Yes, you are quite right. And this means that many people who were poorly parented, but who never managed to challenge their own parents ideas will likely repeat the errors of their parents. Let alone your point about the mad.

But then what rules or guidelines hold up in the face of using mad, unreasonable people as counterarguments.

You'd have to explain every single action they must take in every possible situation. Because otherwise their madness and unreasoning will twist it into something else.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 25th, 2018, 8:47 am
by Karpel Tunnel
The GR cannot do everything. It does shift one into considering the experiences of others, and at least tries to get you to apply your own good to others. Often what you think is good, is not. But at least a better attitude is fostered. It is a challenge to hypocrisy and solipsism. If anyone thinks it is a panacea they are confused. If anyone thinks any moral guidelines, let alone a single sentence one, is going to eliminate all problems, they are extremely confused.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 25th, 2018, 12:59 pm
by mattfara50
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 8:47 am
The GR cannot do everything. It does shift one into considering the experiences of others, and at least tries to get you to apply your own good to others. Often what you think is good, is not. But at least a better attitude is fostered. It is a challenge to hypocrisy and solipsism. If anyone thinks it is a panacea they are confused. If anyone thinks any moral guidelines, let alone a single sentence one, is going to eliminate all problems, they are extremely confused.
Hi Karpel Tunnel. Thanks for weighing in.

I agree with everything you said. I'm trying to highlight a particular problem with the GR, namely that it can lead well-intentioned people to do bad things. The examples I've been elaborating center on religious zealots imposing their desire to have others steer them away from sin onto homosexuals, and the question of whether the GR warrants a parent imposing their will on their children, even if the child does not want to be parented as such. If the GR does warrant parenting as such, why does it, and how does one find the line separating warranted and unwarranted imposition?

Suppose a parent learns that his child detests the parent's parenting style. The parent must ask himself "Were I a child who detested the way he's being parented, how would I want the situation resolved?" The deranged answer might be "I would want to be left to my own devices," in which case the parent abandons the child. The most common answer would seem to be "I would want the wiser parent to continue exercising control and protection over me, with some modifications."

The zealot believes that her holy book endows her with sufficient wisdom to exercise similar authority over homosexuals. Were she a homosexual, she thinks, she'd want to be steered clear of sin, even if she didn't agree with or understand why, since her immortal soul would be more important than her sexual preferences while alive.

So without uncovering the differences in these situations, the GR can be abused in this subtle way. I have no hope that the GR could serve as a framework for discovering any objective moral values, even if all of its flaws were uncovered and rectified. But I think it is useful to see these flaws and engineer around them. ThomasHobbes doesn't seem to think this flaw really exists, though I still fail to see why. My worry is that the GR presupposes moral relativism. If that is the case, it may not even a good foundation from which to build toward better moral understanding.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 25th, 2018, 2:17 pm
by Belindi
Do as you would be done by if it's to have any descriptive value depends upon power. It's a fact of nature that individuals' powers are relative within, and between ,societies and cultural groups.

Some individuals and social groups are so relatively powerless that all they can do and wish others like them to do is endure. Other individuals who are rich, charismatic, well born, mature, or skilled, as the cases may be, are relatively powerful to do as they would be done by. To do as you would be done by presupposes the power to act and do it.

The more the power the more the Golden Rule applies.

Re: An objection to the Golden Rule

Posted: May 25th, 2018, 3:26 pm
by ThomasHobbes
mattfara50 wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 8:03 pm

OK. I am perhaps a bit dense today (or usually).
I see.