Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

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Alias
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias »

LuckyR wrote: May 14th, 2018, 7:23 pm True or false? If 100% of people on earth changed to veganism, would there be a need for farm animals to be raised and culled for their protein content?
There would be no need for food animals. Draft animals, maybe, once the fossil fuel runs out.
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LuckyR
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR »

Alias wrote: May 14th, 2018, 9:16 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 14th, 2018, 7:23 pm True or false? If 100% of people on earth changed to veganism, would there be a need for farm animals to be raised and culled for their protein content?
There would be no need for food animals. Draft animals, maybe, once the fossil fuel runs out.
Uummm... no. The pet food industry consumes more farmed meat than any country except the US, China, Russia and Brazil.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: May 14th, 2018, 7:23 pm True or false? If 100% of people on earth changed to veganism, would there be a need for farm animals to be raised and culled for their protein content?
False, because by that time (approximately the 12th of never) lab-grown meats will be perfected, clean, healthy, cheap and consumers will know exactly what's in it, eg. no risk of mad cow disease or poisons. Hell, looking at people's attitudes towards veganism, by the time time all people are keen to stop eating meat they will probably be digitised super-beings living in a quasi-virtual reality utilising alternative dimensions, and who no longer need to eat but instead absorb energy directly from spacetime ...

I take your point about protein, though, barring tech advances :)
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias »

Once lab-grown meat is affordable, why bother with all the messy stuff for pet-food? Most of what's in pet-food now is the byproducts of meat - mostly chicken and fish; very little beef and no pork - intended for human consumption. Breeding, raising, shipping and slaughtering large animals for pet-food would not be cost-effective. I expect chicken, turkey and any-old fish, including the contaminated ones, will be used longer, because they're relatively cheap.
Did neither of you look at the links I supplied? This isn't remote, some-day technology - it's already here enough to attract big investment. Israel is grappling with its kosherness; the beef association is bullying its tame legislators into drafting laws to copyright the word 'meat'. Like autonomous cars and the printing press, the next thing is unavoidable.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Sy Borg
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Sy Borg »

I'm thinking globally, not just about our particular countries. How long do you think it will take for cultured meat to fully penetrate the markets of our own countries let alone the middle east, Africa and central America? There is not only a matter of cost but raising awareness, overcoming resistance and then widespread production and distribution of what is a fledgling industry hoping to get a foothold in an arena where the established players have the backing of the halls of power. There are considerable drag factors.
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LuckyR
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote: May 15th, 2018, 12:14 am
LuckyR wrote: May 14th, 2018, 7:23 pm True or false? If 100% of people on earth changed to veganism, would there be a need for farm animals to be raised and culled for their protein content?
False, because by that time (approximately the 12th of never) lab-grown meats will be perfected, clean, healthy, cheap and consumers will know exactly what's in it, eg. no risk of mad cow disease or poisons. Hell, looking at people's attitudes towards veganism, by the time time all people are keen to stop eating meat they will probably be digitised super-beings living in a quasi-virtual reality utilising alternative dimensions, and who no longer need to eat but instead absorb energy directly from spacetime ...

I take your point about protein, though, barring tech advances :)
The good news in this area (as in most areas) is that there is steady progress on many fronts. Less meat consumption in the west, growing support of better ranching practices, decreasing call for dairy products. Really it is the growing demand from the newly prosperous asian countries that are driving growth in the cheap, factory farming sector.

I forsee the culture industry cutting the legs out of the bottom of the market, the cheap, factory farmers. Whereas there will always be a market for high end, sustainable meat production. But just as not everyone can drive a Ferrari, the demand for it will be modest and the quantity and average suffering of farm animals will decline over time. Yay.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk »

Just as an aside.
If you are a vegetarian or a vegan because of ethical considerations, be they environmental or cruelty concerns (or both). Is being a vegetarian going to make any difference to any of your concerns?
Now I'm not saying that if it won't make a difference you shouldn't bother (that's a whole different conversation) I just wonder if being a vegetarian/vegan is actually addressing your goals?
As an example. In the UK it was popular to wear a badge with something like 'no wars' written on it. To me that felt worse than pointless because it should be a given and, to my knowledge, no badge has ever stopped a war.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Eduk wrote: May 15th, 2018, 4:06 am Just as an aside.
If you are a vegetarian or a vegan because of ethical considerations, be they environmental or cruelty concerns (or both). Is being a vegetarian going to make any difference to any of your concerns?
Now I'm not saying that if it won't make a difference you shouldn't bother (that's a whole different conversation) I just wonder if being a vegetarian/vegan is actually addressing your goals?
As an example. In the UK it was popular to wear a badge with something like 'no wars' written on it. To me that felt worse than pointless because it should be a given and, to my knowledge, no badge has ever stopped a war.
Being a vegetarian neither makes any difference to any of their concerns, but worst still it does not even address those problems.
In my own direct environment, the idea that we would not have sheep on the land would mean the further destruction of the land by modern ploughing methods that have destroyed the soil and made any productivity wholly dependant on the chemical industry.
By contrast sheep farming provides soil enrichment, wool and great protein and essential fats without the chemicals.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias »

Greta wrote: May 15th, 2018, 2:29 am I'm thinking globally, not just about our particular countries.
Some of the most dynamic progress is being made by Israel and Japan, along with the US. China's very large population has been getting by for millennia on less protein and calcium than it really needs, and is beginning to address the problem https://futurism.com/china-signed-a-300 ... th-israel/ and its government has the capability to address it effectively on a national scale. Africans are not exactly overfed, either. Most of South Americ's beef is exported, so the local people can't afford it. I very much doubt any of those people will turn their noses up at a cheap, nutritious, accessible alternative. India's very large population has existed and multiplied, for millennia, on little or no meat. I have no idea how idea how modern Hindus regard, or will regard, the artificial version.
How long do you think it will take for cultured meat to fully penetrate the markets of our own countries
10-15 years. In spite of backlash from the meat industry. Sooner, if there is an outbreak of BSE or trichinosis rash of shipment of spoiled canned tuna. This fledgling industry has a lot of money invested already https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/23/bill-ga ... artup.html
The halls of power notoriously shift with public opinion and private sponsorship.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias »

Eduk wrote: May 15th, 2018, 4:06 am If you are a vegetarian or a vegan because of ethical considerations, be they environmental or cruelty concerns (or both). Is being a vegetarian going to make any difference to any of your concerns?
My concern or the situation? They're two different things.
My personal moral requirement is certainly addressed - if not wholly satisfied - by the choices I make.
The situation is addressed to a much smaller extent.
Does you vote make any difference to an election result? Of course not! And yet the concept of democracy is based on the cumulative effect of those inconsequential votes. And the food economy is affected by the choices of that minority - at least to the extent of wide availability of almond and soy products, and specified options on restaurant menus. We may not be many, but are here and the market takes notice.
Beyond that, of course, there are charities, educational outlets and political activities in which one may participate to have more influence.
I just wonder if being a vegetarian/vegan is actually addressing your goals?
That depends on your goal. For some people, a change to vegan diet is aimed at preventing, or mitigating heart disease. For some it's a conscientious objection. No, it won't stop the war, but at least I won't kill anyone. No I can't stop my government attacking Viet Nam, but I can let it know that I'm not supporting its decision to do so. The buttons don't stop wars; all they do is communicate my position to other citizens - and if the buttons grow enough voices and feet, they just might intimidate a government into ending that war.

Of course, nobody counts. Everybody counts. It all depends on the count.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by NasloxiehRorsxez »

Alias wrote: May 11th, 2018, 6:38 pm
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote: May 11th, 2018, 5:19 pm Well, does abstaining from animal products actually save any animals in the process? Or is it just to clear one's conscience? If that's only the case, then it seems rather pointless. Since your moral actions change nothing, and the same amount of animals will be supplied regardless.
Regardless of demand?
It doesn't sell, so you don't make any profit, so you keep breeding, raising, shipping, butchering, packing and refrigerating?
I don't think that's how the market operates.


I was speaking more individually, Is it possible for an individual to advocate veganism while consuming meat without being ethically inconsistent?

Your latest post addresses that I think.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias »

NasloxiehRorsxez wrote: May 15th, 2018, 2:34 pm I was speaking more individually, Is it possible for an individual to advocate veganism while consuming meat without being ethically inconsistent?
Of course not. But that never stopped a hypocrite. Good Christians and the death penalty. Drain the swamp...
The trick is not to confuse what people do with what they say.
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LuckyR
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR »

Alias wrote: May 15th, 2018, 6:18 pm
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote: May 15th, 2018, 2:34 pm I was speaking more individually, Is it possible for an individual to advocate veganism while consuming meat without being ethically inconsistent?
Of course not. But that never stopped a hypocrite. Good Christians and the death penalty. Drain the swamp...
The trick is not to confuse what people do with what they say.
Well, not really. This thread has uncovered many nuances and facets of this broad tppic. It is completely logical for an individual to change to eating free range chicken out of concern about factory farming, and support those who choose to be vegan.
"As usual... it depends."
CIN
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by CIN »

-1- wrote: May 14th, 2018, 9:08 pm
CIN wrote: May 14th, 2018, 7:00 pm If a cannibal wanted to eat me, rather than eating a vegetarian meal, I would suggest to him that the value he places on me as food could not possibly attain the value I place on my life for myself. He can get another meal; I can't get another life.

If animals could reason, they would presumably argue exactly as I have just done.

This is why I am vegetarian.
While I appreciate your devotion, the cannibal could not get another meal with protein. In Papua-New Guinea where cannibalism is rampant, or used to be, there were no domesticated animals, and there were no large hunted game. This is an island, a large island, mind you, but an island nevertheless. Larger mammals could not survive on it, because the herbavores would probably graze the land to a desert. So they probably did, they died out for lack of food, the vegetation regenerated, then humans came form the east, and bang, they only meat to eat inland were each other.
Fair enough. If what you say is true, then the value placed on a human life as food in Papua New Guinea is, or was, actually the same as its value to the person whose life it is (or was). In that situation the moral calculus supports cannibalism (or at least does not rule it out). However, if a cannibal family were to move in next door to me here in the UK, I would feel justified in using my argument against them if they started looking at me and licking their lips. I would suggest they go to Tesco instead, and buy a nice vegetarian meal.
LuckyR wrote: May 14th, 2018, 7:23 pm True or false? If 100% of people on earth changed to veganism, would there be a need for farm animals to be raised and culled for their protein content?
Dredging up memories from the vegan course I attended in the 1980s, I believe healthy humans can get the protein they need by combining plant foods from different groups (e.g. grains and pulses) at the same meal. It's all about combining different amino acids. But don't quote me, I'm very rusty about vegan nutrition. Anyone who wants to know that stuff should do their own research. (Though this is not easy. There are a lot of people on the internet who have big axes to grind in this area.)
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by -1- »

CIN wrote: May 16th, 2018, 4:21 am
-1- wrote: May 14th, 2018, 9:08 pm

While I appreciate your devotion, the cannibal could not get another meal with protein. In Papua-New Guinea where cannibalism is rampant, or used to be, there were no domesticated animals, and there were no large hunted game. This is an island, a large island, mind you, but an island nevertheless. Larger mammals could not survive on it, because the herbavores would probably graze the land to a desert. So they probably did, they died out for lack of food, the vegetation regenerated, then humans came form the east, and bang, they only meat to eat inland were each other.
Fair enough. If what you say is true, then the value placed on a human life as food in Papua New Guinea is, or was, actually the same as its value to the person whose life it is (or was). In that situation the moral calculus supports cannibalism (or at least does not rule it out). However, if a cannibal family were to move in next door to me here in the UK, I would feel justified in using my argument against them if they started looking at me and licking their lips. I would suggest they go to Tesco instead, and buy a nice vegetarian meal.
What I said must be true, because I read it on the Internet.

I would buy your second argument, about the Kannibals moving in next door, if you said Texas, Germany, Australia, or Gruzia. But the UK???? That country is thiiiiis close to take on the practice of cannabis due to the same considerations as Papua-New Guinea.

One more tidbit of info: when we had the mad cow disease outbreaks, they, whoever they are, realized it's due to species eating protein matter of their own species. Like feeding leftover raw hamburger meat to Giraffes. (I'm talking about Giraffe hamburgers. Are there any other kind?) So a bunch of scientists or propagandists flew to Papua-New Guinea and asked the locals to stop eating human flesh, and gave them the reasons.

You know what happened... no, they did not eat the envoys. Instead, the Papuans said, "okay", and stopped the practice of Cannabis. Or cannibalis. You see, they are humans, too, with human intelligence, and understand reason.
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