Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by -1- » May 13th, 2018, 12:08 am

Greta wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 5:53 pm
By the same token, why bother trying to help the poor? No matter what you do, more keep appearing.

Perhaps we should eat the poor? After all, if it doesn't matter whether we kill or eat animals, then why does it matter to kill and eat people? After all, these are only relatively, rather than absolutely, different activities.
Eating the flesh of the members of the same species -- dead or alive -- can cause Mad Cow disease. This is true regardless of species.

So as long as the poor are a different species, you can eat them.

Thus, you can eat

Any orangutang who rents primary residence (ie. primate residence) with a net income of less than 200 dollars a month.

Any giraffe that fails the LSAT by at least 34 % is fair game to eat. (Impoverished intelligence.)

Any fish that does not like Richard Wagner's music you can't eat. It would amount to cannibalism.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 13th, 2018, 4:16 am

Apologies when I said replicator I didn't mean to imply we were that far from viable lab grown meat.
When you say lab grown meat is here. That's true. But it's currently not commercial. That's the only distinction I'm trying to make.
Oh and regarding current lab grown meat. I was listening to an article where they used some part of an animal for substrate. It wasn't, yet, efficient. But hopefully in the not too distant future. Though I think it's hard to put a number on it? I've read reports that say 5 years? But often those reports are wildly inaccurate, though not always.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 13th, 2018, 6:17 am

Alias I take it you are based in America? I am from England. Here such news stories of animal cruelty and factory farming are front and centre news. At least that is my experience.
The problem in England, and I am sure elsewhere, is that very often the choice is between eating meat whose provenance is unknown (and could normally assumed to be quite bad) or not eating meat. Of course there are exceptions, but they are not so straight forward to find. There is also a lot of misinformation. Companies quite often lie, indirectly or directly.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 13th, 2018, 10:52 am

Eduk wrote:
May 13th, 2018, 6:17 am
Alias I take it you are based in America? I am from England. Here such news stories of animal cruelty and factory farming are front and centre news. At least that is my experience.
I live in Canada, and we get the odd expose of chicken or cattle abuse on CBC. It's not widely disseminated or commercially encouraged, but it does exist. In the States, the backlash is as much stronger as agribusiness is richer. Of course, whenever there is a conservative government, anything science- or environment-related tends to be suppressed.
The problem in England, and I am sure elsewhere, is that very often the choice is between eating meat whose provenance is unknown (and could normally assumed to be quite bad) or not eating meat.
We've been managing fine with the second option for 30 years. Eggs and dairy products make it a lot easier, especially living in the country, near small family and co-op farms. Yes, it's a compromise. I'm perfectly aware that most people of conscience have to settle for some kind of compromise. Very few can opt out of their economic and cultural milieu. But all have the power to make some considered, informed decisions.

As to the clean meat, commercially practical versions are a lot closer than you seem to think.
With JUST products in more than 20,000 stores, plans to release lab-grown clean meat onto the market by the end of the year at a retail price within 30 percent of that of traditional meat, Tetrick is optimistic about the future of the company and the global food system.
"In tomorrow's world, you can eat more meat, hopefully safer meat, even better tasting meat, without eating the animal," says Tetrick.
https://reason.com/reasontv/2018/04/26/ ... at-tetrick
It takes a lot of energy - like any industrial operation - but when you compare it to the demands of 'traditional' meat production, I'm pretty sure we'll end up with a net saving. When you factor in the pollution and waste cleanup, I'm absolutely sure it'll be a net gain. The investors aren't in it for the ethical perks - they're doing it in the expectation of serious profit.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 13th, 2018, 11:00 am

NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 5:19 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 4:09 pm

Why do you say that?
Supermarket steak has no feelings.

Well, does abstaining from animal products actually save any animals in the process? Or is it just to clear one's conscience? If that's only the case, then it seems rather pointless. Since your moral actions change nothing, and the same amount of animals will be supplied regardless. In fact, you could probably be able to argue that it's ethically preferable to consume the meat, as it doesn't go to waste.
Indeed.
In fact as a meat eater I contribute to a net reduction in the incidence of animal suffering.
The more animals I eat the less animals suffer.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 14th, 2018, 4:13 am

Alias I guess we can agree to disagree about the clean meat. Either way we are only talking about a few years difference. The blink of an eye really.
Back to the OP.
Where does eating insects fall ethically?

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 14th, 2018, 10:56 am

Eduk wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 4:13 am
Alias I guess we can agree to disagree about the clean meat. Either way we are only talking about a few years difference. The blink of an eye really.
Back to the OP.
Where does eating insects fall ethically?
Personally, I have no problem with eating insects - always assuming you don't torture them first, and avoid killing mantids, because I have an irrational fondness for them. But it'll pretty much have to be ants, because we're fast eradicating the flying insects that feed the songbirds and pollinate our food crops. https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access ... 99176.html

There are still earthworms, and they can be farmed. I imagine eating them directly is less unkind than using as bait for fish.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by NasloxiehRorsxez » May 14th, 2018, 2:01 pm

Alias wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 10:56 am
Eduk wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 4:13 am
Alias I guess we can agree to disagree about the clean meat. Either way we are only talking about a few years difference. The blink of an eye really.
Back to the OP.
Where does eating insects fall ethically?
Personally, I have no problem with eating insects - always assuming you don't torture them first, and avoid killing mantids, because I have an irrational fondness for them. But it'll pretty much have to be ants, because we're fast eradicating the flying insects that feed the songbirds and pollinate our food crops. https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access ... 99176.html

There are still earthworms, and they can be farmed. I imagine eating them directly is less unkind than using as bait for fish.
What makes eating insects ok but not animals? Assuming both are killed painlessly and the species being consumed isn't endangered.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 14th, 2018, 3:42 pm

Eduk wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 4:13 am
Where does eating insects fall ethically?
Vegetarians are most responsible for the deaths of these defenceless creatures, since vegetarians compete for their food with many insect species.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 14th, 2018, 6:02 pm

NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 2:01 pm
What makes eating insects ok but not animals?
People draw their ethical lines according to some arbitrarily chosen standard and by some particular reasoning process. Generally, they disapprove of eating animals that they feel close to - either because they're familiar companions,like dogs, or because they have human-like characteristics, like gorillas.
The criteria I use for judging are brain size and complexity. In fact, I don't eat insects of any kind.
Eduk -- Vegetarians are most responsible for the deaths of these defenceless creatures, since vegetarians compete for their food with many insect species.
Really? Which insect species prefer corn meant for human consumption over corn meant for cattle or corn meant for biodiesel?

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 14th, 2018, 6:29 pm

Alias I base my morality upon long term, gene centric, existentialist concerns.
Also by the actual experience of empathy and related emotions.
I see neither as arbitrary.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by CIN » May 14th, 2018, 7:00 pm

If a cannibal wanted to eat me, rather than eating a vegetarian meal, I would suggest to him that the value he places on me as food could not possibly attain the value I place on my life for myself. He can get another meal; I can't get another life.

If animals could reason, they would presumably argue exactly as I have just done.

This is why I am vegetarian.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR » May 14th, 2018, 7:23 pm

True or false? If 100% of people on earth changed to veganism, would there be a need for farm animals to be raised and culled for their protein content?
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by -1- » May 14th, 2018, 9:08 pm

CIN wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 7:00 pm
If a cannibal wanted to eat me, rather than eating a vegetarian meal, I would suggest to him that the value he places on me as food could not possibly attain the value I place on my life for myself. He can get another meal; I can't get another life.

If animals could reason, they would presumably argue exactly as I have just done.

This is why I am vegetarian.
While I appreciate your devotion, the cannibal could not get another meal with protein. In Papua-New Guinea where cannibalism is rampant, or used to be, there were no domesticated animals, and there were no large hunted game. This is an island, a large island, mind you, but an island nevertheless. Larger mammals could not survive on it, because the herbavores would probably graze the land to a desert. So they probably did, they died out for lack of food, the vegetation regenerated, then humans came form the east, and bang, they only meat to eat inland were each other.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by -1- » May 14th, 2018, 9:11 pm

Alias wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 6:02 pm

The criteria I use for judging (what to eat -- added by -1-) are brain size and complexity. In fact, I don't eat insects of any kind.
Gaaaa! A cannibal for sure!!
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