Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

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Alias
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 16th, 2018, 11:39 am

LuckyR wrote:
May 16th, 2018, 1:19 am
This thread has uncovered many nuances and facets of this broad tppic. It is completely logical for an individual to change to eating free range chicken out of concern about factory farming, and support those who choose to be vegan.
Absolutely! But it would be inconsistent for a conscientious objector to support any kind of war, or for a pious Hindu to support even the most humane slaughter of cattle.
It's perfectly logical and ethical to be straight and monogamous, and also support equal marriage for everyone else.
Moral consistency is an internal process: we each build our ethical structure and reinforce it as best we can in the given circumstances.
What's inconsistent is praising diversity while curtailing the rights of those who are different.

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Felix
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Felix » May 17th, 2018, 5:08 am

Alias: Once lab-grown meat is affordable, why bother with all the messy stuff for pet-food?
Unlike humans, dogs and cats are carnivores (especially cats) and cannot get some of the essential nutrients they require from a plant based diet, e.g., certain amino acids and fatty acids. As far as I know, this problem has not been solved yet, feeding them "meat-like" foods and synthetic nutrients has resulted in sick and blind animals.

Perhaps a solution could be found to this problem, but no one has wanted to, or really had a need to, spend the money on research to find it. If need be, we could always feed them free range chicken eggs and raw goat cheese for breakfast - if that won't test a dogs loyalty, I don't know what will!
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 17th, 2018, 7:59 am

Felix lab grown meat is meat?

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 17th, 2018, 8:03 am

Lab-grown meat is meat.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 17th, 2018, 8:06 am

Felix wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 5:08 am
Perhaps a solution could be found to this problem, but no one has wanted to, or really had a need to, spend the money on research to find it.
You're a bit behind the times. The solution is found, and some of the smartest money in the world [Gates, Branson et al] is backing large-scale production. If you were interested, several of the articles I linked, plus this one https://science.howstuffworks.com/innov ... in-lab.htm may be useful.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR » May 17th, 2018, 12:13 pm

Alias wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 8:06 am
Felix wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 5:08 am
Perhaps a solution could be found to this problem, but no one has wanted to, or really had a need to, spend the money on research to find it.
You're a bit behind the times. The solution is found, and some of the smartest money in the world [Gates, Branson et al] is backing large-scale production. If you were interested, several of the articles I linked, plus this one https://science.howstuffworks.com/innov ... in-lab.htm may be useful.
I agree. As I mentioned the eventual role of lab meat is the low end of the market, pet food, beef flavored processed products etc. Steaks are likely to still be of animal origin since use of the muscle over a lifetime changes the chemical composition and the flavor of the meal. This, of course is a much smaller segment of the market, very amenable to humane farming, with a price-point that would make it pencil out, financially.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 17th, 2018, 12:34 pm

You assume limits to what can be grown in a lab LuckyR. Granted currently lab grown meat can't compete with the real thing, but that is only currently.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR » May 17th, 2018, 1:03 pm

Eduk wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 12:34 pm
You assume limits to what can be grown in a lab LuckyR. Granted currently lab grown meat can't compete with the real thing, but that is only currently.
There is a reason that a $10,000 Rolex, which keeps time worse than a $80 Timex, still has a market.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 17th, 2018, 1:13 pm

Now you are talking about something completely different LuckyR. You mentioned muscles effecting flavour not fashion statements.

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Felix
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Felix » May 17th, 2018, 1:23 pm

Alias: You're a bit behind the times. The solution is found
No, I read the previous articles you posted. That'll work now for humans now who can live on a varied omnivorous diet, but not yet for carnivorous animals like cats and dogs (at least cats). Currently, the fake meats do not have the same nutrient profile as the real thing, e.g., they are missing certain essential fatty acids from meat/fish that carnivores require. Not saying they can't get there but it hasn't happened yet.

Also, as mentioned in that article, they need basal animal tissues - bovine fetal tissue and stem cells as mentioned in that article - to grow more animal tissues, how much of it is not clear.

So the factory farming has become laboratory farming - rather like the Matrix but starring cows. Will Elsie take the red pill? Find out in the sequel....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 17th, 2018, 1:31 pm

Current lab meats are not future lab meats.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR » May 17th, 2018, 1:53 pm

Eduk wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 1:13 pm
Now you are talking about something completely different LuckyR. You mentioned muscles effecting flavour not fashion statements.
Subjective things (like taste) are subject to different interpretations. Regardless, there will still be a market for high end steaks, regardless of the quality of lab science. Did the market for mined diamonds dry up when synthetic ones were created? Are fountain pens still available? Of course they are and they commonly cost well into three figures (though there are examples in the fourth and fifth).
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 17th, 2018, 2:00 pm

I never sad fashion would stop LuckyR

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Eduk » May 17th, 2018, 2:01 pm

I meant to say I never said.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 17th, 2018, 2:59 pm

Felix wrote:
May 17th, 2018, 1:23 pm
Alias: You're a bit behind the times. The solution is found
No, I read the previous articles you posted. That'll work now for humans now who can live on a varied omnivorous diet, but not yet for carnivorous animals like cats and dogs (at least cats). Currently, the fake meats do not have the same nutrient profile as the real thing, e.g., they are missing certain essential fatty acids from meat/fish that carnivores require.
That's true of the soy-based imitation meats, but this isn't "fake meat" - it's the real thing, cultured from living mammal, bird and fish cells, with all the components of those cells. True, as LuckyR says, it would be more like baby veal than adult steer, but flavouring can be added - including fat and hormones, if you want them.
(By the way, have you read the ingredients on a can or bag of pet-food lately? Most of it is grains and animal "by-producs" - chicken beaks, fish meal. integuments and offal.
Also, as mentioned in that article, they need basal animal tissues - bovine fetal tissue and stem cells as mentioned in that article - to grow more animal tissues, how much of it is not clear.
They don't need fetal tissue and FBS; these happen to be a convenient byproduct of current butchering practice; it is harvested as a matter of course in slaughterhouses and sold for research and many products besides cultured meat.
With specific cells - mainly muscle, of course - you get a lot of product from a very small original sample.
As for the animal, it can go on living its life as normal. In the future, it may therefore only be necessary to have a few animals that have been selected for their cells’ characteristics to choose for biopsies. However, the possibility exists to eliminate the farming (in the classical sense, for food) altogether (discussed later). ....
.... researchers have been working for a long time in creating serum-free medium formulations. The reason for this is because serum is notoriously variable from lot to lot, expensive, and can lead to mycoplasma or other contaminants. As a result, nearly all embryonic and induced pluripotent stem cell culture is performed serum-free.
from a more comprehensive article http://elliot-swartz.squarespace.com/sc ... nvitromeat and that was a year ago.
So the factory farming has become laboratory farming - rather like the Matrix but starring cows.
Even if that were so, the numbers would be reduced to a tiny fraction of what they are now. In fact, in vitro meat production could be compatible with humane dairy and egg farming.

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