Killing Hitler?

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LuckyR
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by LuckyR » July 6th, 2018, 3:19 am

mr533473 wrote:
July 5th, 2018, 10:50 pm
LuckyR wrote:
July 5th, 2018, 5:22 pm


Yes, exactly that. Suicide is immoral to me, though I would not disagree with those who find it morally acceptable and would not seek to limit their options legally.
Do you have other moral standards where you are an exception? Perhaps something that is permissible for you but immoral for everyone else?
Yes, but not of the type you mention.
"As usual... it depends."

Eduk
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by Eduk » July 6th, 2018, 3:25 am

Is morality the right way to measure suicide? I know, distantly, people who have committed suicide. I don't know why they did it. Personally I thought it was a terrible thing for them to do but I don't think of them as immoral.

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mr533473
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by mr533473 » July 6th, 2018, 4:00 am

LuckyR wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 3:19 am
mr533473 wrote:
July 5th, 2018, 10:50 pm
Do you have other moral standards where you are an exception? Perhaps something that is permissible for you but immoral for everyone else?
Yes, but not of the type you mention.
Greta wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 2:38 am
When put like that it's not a good look. However, it looks to me that Lucky simply holds himself to certain standards (as we tend to do) but he prefers where practicable to give others the freedom to subscribe to their own standards, rather than believing they should adopt his particular ethics ... unlike many busybody bastards out there who couldn't keep their sticky beaks to themselves to save their lives :D
I see this, but it would not be unreasonable for something like this to follow, given what LuckyR has stated. What I would like to identify now is what action, performed by another, would LuckyR find immoral? Following this, why is this action is subject to Lucky's view of morality while suicide is not?

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LuckyR
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by LuckyR » July 6th, 2018, 2:53 pm

mr533473 wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 4:00 am
LuckyR wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 3:19 am

Yes, but not of the type you mention.
Greta wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 2:38 am
When put like that it's not a good look. However, it looks to me that Lucky simply holds himself to certain standards (as we tend to do) but he prefers where practicable to give others the freedom to subscribe to their own standards, rather than believing they should adopt his particular ethics ... unlike many busybody bastards out there who couldn't keep their sticky beaks to themselves to save their lives :D
I see this, but it would not be unreasonable for something like this to follow, given what LuckyR has stated. What I would like to identify now is what action, performed by another, would LuckyR find immoral? Following this, why is this action is subject to Lucky's view of morality while suicide is not?
Hhmmm... well it depends what you mean by "find". We don't have to go beyond suicide to find something that I would not personally do (as commonly described) as I find it personally immoral, but as I stated if someone else does it, I would have no say in it's relative morality to that person and ethically it would be frowned upon but there is not a consensus on whether it is unethical or not. OTOH if you mean whether I would "find" something like murder immoral both personally and for society at large.
"As usual... it depends."

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mr533473
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by mr533473 » July 6th, 2018, 10:43 pm

LuckyR wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 2:53 pm
mr533473 wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 4:00 am
Hhmmm... well it depends what you mean by "find". We don't have to go beyond suicide to find something that I would not personally do (as commonly described) as I find it personally immoral, but as I stated if someone else does it, I would have no say in it's relative morality to that person and ethically it would be frowned upon but there is not a consensus on whether it is unethical or not. OTOH if you mean whether I would "find" something like murder immoral both personally and for society at large.
I'm asking you, so don't feel a need to speak on behalf of anyone but yourself. If someone murders someone else, is it immoral?

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LuckyR
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by LuckyR » July 6th, 2018, 11:58 pm

mr533473 wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 10:43 pm

I'm asking you, so don't feel a need to speak on behalf of anyone but yourself. If someone murders someone else, is it immoral?
I find murder immoral for me and for others. Also our society has deemed it unethical as well.
"As usual... it depends."

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mr533473
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by mr533473 » July 7th, 2018, 12:38 am

LuckyR wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 11:58 pm
mr533473 wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 10:43 pm

I'm asking you, so don't feel a need to speak on behalf of anyone but yourself. If someone murders someone else, is it immoral?
I find murder immoral for me and for others.
Ok, so personally, suicide, you find to be immoral. You also find murder to be immoral. Neither of these things should you act out, right?

..for some reason your moral standing on suicide, does not apply to others. That is to say, it is permissible for them to do it. However, when it comes to murder, others are held to the same moral standard that you hold yourself to. That is to say it is not permissible for them to do it. Why is this? How does it work?

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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by LuckyR » July 8th, 2018, 1:45 am

mr533473 wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 12:38 am
LuckyR wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 11:58 pm


I find murder immoral for me and for others.
Ok, so personally, suicide, you find to be immoral. You also find murder to be immoral. Neither of these things should you act out, right?

..for some reason your moral standing on suicide, does not apply to others. That is to say, it is permissible for them to do it. However, when it comes to murder, others are held to the same moral standard that you hold yourself to. That is to say it is not permissible for them to do it. Why is this? How does it work?
I'm just judgey that way
"As usual... it depends."

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LuckyR
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by LuckyR » July 8th, 2018, 1:45 am

[sup][/sup]
mr533473 wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 12:38 am
LuckyR wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 11:58 pm


I find murder immoral for me and for others.
Ok, so personally, suicide, you find to be immoral. You also find murder to be immoral. Neither of these things should you act out, right?

..for some reason your moral standing on suicide, does not apply to others. That is to say, it is permissible for them to do it. However, when it comes to murder, others are held to the same moral standard that you hold yourself to. That is to say it is not permissible for them to do it. Why is this? How does it work?
I'm just judgey that way
"As usual... it depends."

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mr533473
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by mr533473 » July 8th, 2018, 2:41 am

LuckyR wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 1:45 am
[sup][/sup]
mr533473 wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 12:38 am


Ok, so personally, suicide, you find to be immoral. You also find murder to be immoral. Neither of these things should you act out, right?

..for some reason your moral standing on suicide, does not apply to others. That is to say, it is permissible for them to do it. However, when it comes to murder, others are held to the same moral standard that you hold yourself to. That is to say it is not permissible for them to do it. Why is this? How does it work?
I'm just judgey that way
Oh, ok, did you know you lacked a moral sense when you first answered the question?

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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by chewybrian » July 8th, 2018, 6:05 am

mr533473 wrote:
July 3rd, 2018, 2:51 am
1.) Morally speaking, is suicide immoral, permissible or obligatory? Why?

2.) If between 1930-1945, you were given the chance (without repercussion) to kill Hitler, would you do it? Would doing it be immoral, permissible or obligatory? why?

3.) Was Hitler's suicide immoral, permissible or obligatory? why?

4.) What's your favourite colour?
1-Immoral, unless you are suffering horribly from a terminal disease, in which case change it to permissible. It is immoral because by killing yourself you fail in your duty to your social contract to pay back society for the education and other benefits it provided you.

2-It would be permissible *after* the U.S. declared war on Germany, assuming you were a U.S. citizen. He became an enemy combatant at that point, and an existential threat to any U.S. citizen. He would have rained rocket bombs on us if they could have made the trip. Killing him at that point was like killing a terrorist actively plotting to kill you.

3-Immoral, because he avoided facing justice. The reason you commit suicide does matter.

4-Blue...no!
Image
mr533473 wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 12:38 am
LuckyR wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 11:58 pm


I find murder immoral for me and for others.
Ok, so personally, suicide, you find to be immoral. You also find murder to be immoral. Neither of these things should you act out, right?

..for some reason your moral standing on suicide, does not apply to others. That is to say, it is permissible for them to do it. However, when it comes to murder, others are held to the same moral standard that you hold yourself to. That is to say it is not permissible for them to do it. Why is this? How does it work?
I don't see the contradiction. If you want to reserve rights for yourself, some of which others might view as immoral when you do not, then you must allow them to act with their own conscience when it does not sufficiently impact you. Smoking is immoral and I don't smoke. It is illegal to smoke in public buildings, because it is wrong for someone to pass along second hand smoke to unwilling others. But, it should not be illegal for someone else to smoke outside or in their own home (though you could make a serious argument about how we pay for the health care costs). Give everyone all the freedom they can handle until they start using their freedom to limit the freedom of others--isn't that the general idea?

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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by LuckyR » July 8th, 2018, 4:20 pm

mr533473 wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 2:41 am
LuckyR wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 1:45 am
[sup][/sup]

I'm just judgey that way
Oh, ok, did you know you lacked a moral sense when you first answered the question?
Heavens no! Pray tell, please explain with better detail why that is your opinion.
"As usual... it depends."

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mr533473
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by mr533473 » July 15th, 2018, 1:48 pm

LuckyR wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 4:20 pm
mr533473 wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 2:41 am


Oh, ok, did you know you lacked a moral sense when you first answered the question?
Heavens no! Pray tell, please explain with better detail why that is your opinion.
Well, to the previous post which asked why you considered an act right/wrong for you but not for someone else, you responded "I'm just judgey that way". I don't think a moral sense is merely calling something right or wrong. I think it's more the principles, reasoning or system of values that get you there. On what basis do you determine right and wrong? I see your judgement but no basis.

If I teach a parrot to say 'right' and 'wrong', and it does so arbitrarily, I don't then think I have instilled some kind of moral sense in the bird. The utterances are merely token words.

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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by LuckyR » July 16th, 2018, 9:51 am

mr533473 wrote:
July 15th, 2018, 1:48 pm
LuckyR wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 4:20 pm


Heavens no! Pray tell, please explain with better detail why that is your opinion.
Well, to the previous post which asked why you considered an act right/wrong for you but not for someone else, you responded "I'm just judgey that way". I don't think a moral sense is merely calling something right or wrong. I think it's more the principles, reasoning or system of values that get you there. On what basis do you determine right and wrong? I see your judgement but no basis.

If I teach a parrot to say 'right' and 'wrong', and it does so arbitrarily, I don't then think I have instilled some kind of moral sense in the bird. The utterances are merely token words.
Aside from the inherently obvious fact that I hold myself to a higher personal standard than what I can reasonably ask everyone else on the planet to, considering that most folks have dealt with and are dealing with very, very different circumstances than I have, is IMO the best way of: both acknowledging that we are all products of our experiences as well as the optimal goal for my personal position in humanity.

Greta got it, I apologize that I have not been able to communicate with you.
"As usual... it depends."

CIN
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Re: Killing Hitler?

Post by CIN » July 26th, 2018, 7:12 am

mr533473 wrote:
July 3rd, 2018, 2:51 am
1.) Morally speaking, is suicide immoral, permissible or obligatory? Why?

2.) If between 1930-1945, you were given the chance (without repercussion) to kill Hitler, would you do it? Would doing it be immoral, permissible or obligatory? why?

3.) Was Hitler's suicide immoral, permissible or obligatory? why?

4.) What's your favourite colour?
1) Depends. If I have children who will starve if I kill myself, it's immoral. If I'm an army instructor and a bomb lands in front of my squad and the only way to stop them being killed is for me to throw myself on it, it's obligatory. Often it's just permissible. Suicide is just an act like any other; you decide whether it's moral or immoral in the same way you would any other act.
2) Yes, I would. The bastard killed 6 million innocent Jews. Obligatory. No brainer.
3) Obligatory (see 2). Not that the bastard knew it himself.
4) Octarine.

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