Morals, Morality and God

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tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

I agree that we can be moral people without knowing exactly what the absolute morals are. I also agree that we should strive to improve ourselves to improve our quality of life.

My problem is that without knowing absolute moral code, people are free to develop a morality based on human reasoning. Sometimes such imperfect reasoning has led to disasters. There have been dictators and their followers who have killed millions honestly reasoning that they were improving humanity.

My point is that if we want to find what our true moral code is, we need to learn about ourselves, how we were made and why we were created. An absolute moral code must be consistent with our being. We are like anything else that is made. Something lasts longer and is most useful if it us used in the way in which it was intended.

I am aware that we are imperfect and therefore all of our knowledge is imperfect. But as in any field, this should not deter us from getting a better understanding of reality including our morals. I am aware that my line of reasoning implies a creator. Without a creator, then our moral code is subject to the best or worst of human reasoning. This brings me back to my original premise that to get an absolute moral code we cannot do so without knowledge of our creator should he, she or it exist.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by ThomasHobbes »

tommarcus wrote: August 7th, 2018, 11:49 am I agree that we can be moral people without knowing exactly what the absolute morals are.
Correction. We are moral people with there being any absolute moral rules.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Thinking critical »

tommarcus wrote: July 25th, 2018, 12:02 pm If we were created by a totally random act of the universe, then we have no purpose except to live and die.
This line of reasoning assumes that the Universe is intentionally created for humans for the pupose of living and dying.
Things that are intentionally created serve a purpose, purpose is not an innate quality.
What is good or bad for us can change based on changes of our chemical composition. We can search for a purpose, but it would just be a good guess and could never be absolute or certain.
We may search for things which give our life meaning, that which we find meaningful creates purpose in the pursuit of maintaing it.
But if we were created by God, then we were created for a reason and a purpose which are absolute.
This would be gods purpose, making us no more that things that serve a purpose, like a "toilet roll holder", hardly meaningful!.
The highest objective for our existence would be not just to live or die but to fulfill that purpose.
What if I didn't like the purpose of what i was intentionally created for?
What if I was happier doing something else? Cattle dogs are bred for the purpose of rounding up stock, however it's not hard to imagine that such a dog may find more pleasure playing with kids?
We would be living according to ourselves, not in conflict with ourselves. Living according to such rules would be the highest and most absolute moral code.
If we find meaning in the purpose which we create, surely that would be classified as "living according to ourselves".
Because of the absolute nature of God, such absolute moral code would exist. Our problem would be to discover it and live according to it. But somehow, God would have to tell us what it is. Otherwise we would be just guessing.
If we can't discover these absolute morals how do you know they exist? How can you not know the moral code yet claim to the nature of god?
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

Great questions.

First and most importantly if we are talking about God then we are talking about the most powerful, perfect and most good being that exists. Any being less than that is not God. He, she or it may be some great and powerful being, maybe lives on a planet somewhere, or in a giant cave or black hole. But that creature is not God because true God would be greater than some being that does not have at least those characteristics.

Now if God exists, he or she would either be the epitome of selfishness or the epitome of goodness. Being infinite, there would be no limitation in either direction. It should be fair to say that selfishness is a much lower value than goodness or unselfishness. So if our being was not God and chose to be totally selfish then we wouldn't be here, assuming he at least had the power to create or destroy the universe. That would be a perfect example of supreme selfishness. But if he was in fact a true God, we would definitely be here because to be unselfish requires that he shares existence with others.

Now God would create a universe and beings in it for more than just amusement. He doesn't need toys and he probably doesn't get bored. She would create other beings for no less a purpose than that of a simple mother who gives birth. He would create beings who would have more of a purpose than just living for a split second. Even a human mother does more than that. That is why that if there is a God, then he or she created us for some higher purpose.

This purpose would be for our benefit, not just for a perfect God's. Mount Olympus has been vacant for a long time. The closer we live according to that purpose, then the happier we would be because we would have been made to fulfill that purpose. If we act contrary to the way we were made, we would be like a misused machine.

Finding that purpose and the resulting meaning which it gives our lives is a given. We can certainly find meaning without a god and without God's help. But that meaning might not be anything close to our true purpose. Therefore, whatever meaning we find may be seriously flawed. Unfortunately, history is full of tyrants and evil groups of people who found meaning and purpose in doing evil. Many even thought they were doing God's work. They consider themselves moral. The problem is they created their own morals and morality, not God's.

So how do we find these perfect morals? Certainly we have no choice but find them using our imperfect minds and bodies. We may even be able to get close. But the burden is on God if he or she exists, to inform us, because otherwise we will be debating them forever and never know for sure. And if current history is any indication, there is no guarantee that our moral code will get better and not worse.
Fooloso4
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Fooloso4 »

tommarcus:
First and most importantly if we are talking about God then we are talking about the most powerful, perfect and most good being that exists.
First and most importantly if we are talking about God then we are talking about different concepts and no way to determine which if any of those concepts match an entity properly named God.
Now if God exists, he or she would either be the epitome of selfishness or the epitome of goodness.
By your definition above God could not be the epitome of selfishness unless God's selfishness was the epitome of goodness. Logically that could be the case, if all that is is part of God. Put differently, there may be no distinction between God's self and what is other than God.
But if he was in fact a true God, we would definitely be here because to be unselfish requires that he shares existence with others.
If our existence entails suffering, which it does, then the unselfish thing might be for us not to exist and hence not to suffer. Not existing there could be no way we would miss out on the good things in life, for only what exists can miss out.
He would create beings who would have more of a purpose than just living for a split second.
There is no logical reason why that must be the case. Do you have that little regard for life?
Finding that purpose and the resulting meaning which it gives our lives is a given.
It is not a given, it is an assertion that you attempt to dress up to appear to be something more.
Therefore, whatever meaning we find may be seriously flawed.
Your positing a God who exists according to your definition and whatever meaning you think follows from that is seriously flawed.
So how do we find these perfect morals?
The idea that there is a perfect morals is found to be questionable.
Certainly we have no choice but find them using our imperfect minds and bodies.
We have a choice to reject the idea of a perfect morals suitable to creatures with imperfect minds and bodies, and get on with trying to do our best to do what seems best.
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LuckyR
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by LuckyR »

tommarcus wrote: August 16th, 2018, 10:30 am Great questions.

First and most importantly if we are talking about God then we are talking about the most powerful, perfect and most good being that exists. Any being less than that is not God. He, she or it may be some great and powerful being, maybe lives on a planet somewhere, or in a giant cave or black hole. But that creature is not God because true God would be greater than some being that does not have at least those characteristics.

Now if God exists, he or she would either be the epitome of selfishness or the epitome of goodness. Being infinite, there would be no limitation in either direction. It should be fair to say that selfishness is a much lower value than goodness or unselfishness. So if our being was not God and chose to be totally selfish then we wouldn't be here, assuming he at least had the power to create or destroy the universe. That would be a perfect example of supreme selfishness. But if he was in fact a true God, we would definitely be here because to be unselfish requires that he shares existence with others.

Now God would create a universe and beings in it for more than just amusement. He doesn't need toys and he probably doesn't get bored. She would create other beings for no less a purpose than that of a simple mother who gives birth. He would create beings who would have more of a purpose than just living for a split second. Even a human mother does more than that. That is why that if there is a God, then he or she created us for some higher purpose.

This purpose would be for our benefit, not just for a perfect God's. Mount Olympus has been vacant for a long time. The closer we live according to that purpose, then the happier we would be because we would have been made to fulfill that purpose. If we act contrary to the way we were made, we would be like a misused machine.

Finding that purpose and the resulting meaning which it gives our lives is a given. We can certainly find meaning without a god and without God's help. But that meaning might not be anything close to our true purpose. Therefore, whatever meaning we find may be seriously flawed. Unfortunately, history is full of tyrants and evil groups of people who found meaning and purpose in doing evil. Many even thought they were doing God's work. They consider themselves moral. The problem is they created their own morals and morality, not God's.

So how do we find these perfect morals? Certainly we have no choice but find them using our imperfect minds and bodies. We may even be able to get close. But the burden is on God if he or she exists, to inform us, because otherwise we will be debating them forever and never know for sure. And if current history is any indication, there is no guarantee that our moral code will get better and not worse.
Not your god, maybe. But plenty of gods aren't. In fact, way back when gods were invented, they weren't.
"As usual... it depends."
tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

I certainly agree that it would be difficult if not impossible to get a perfect understanding as to what the existence of God is or could be. But that does not mean that it is acceptable to use our inability to define God as an excuse to believe anything that suits us.

It is my position that many of the attributes given to God by all religions violate any reasonable definition of God or any perfect being. If you want to believe that God condones the beheading of someone because of their beliefs, then you are free to do so. But that belief violates basic logic when applied to a truly supreme being. If you think it makes a difference to God as to whether you are a man or woman when it comes to serving him or her, believe it. But from a logical point of view that is ridiculous. If you want to believe word for word some stories that were told about God to teach rather than describe, enjoy yourself. But don't ask us to believe that God incinerated whole cities because he had a bad day.

Then there are the others who like to describe God as energy, or some thing. If you designate an inanimate object, no matter how powerful, as God, then that object is not God. I or you would be more godly than that God because we have a personality, which this object would not gave.

We might be imperfect. But that doesn't mean that we can't question and reject notions about God which make no sense. And this is an important responsibility of philosophy. Too many evil people justify their actions as being consistent with their definition if God. And their definition is not honest, but warped. We will always have many grey areas. But there are some ideas about God and the resulting morality which need to be tossed into the trash bin as a result of more logical and honest thought. If God exists, he or she would appreciate it, as would any one of us.
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LuckyR
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by LuckyR »

tommarcus wrote: August 18th, 2018, 10:14 pm I certainly agree that it would be difficult if not impossible to get a perfect understanding as to what the existence of God is or could be. But that does not mean that it is acceptable to use our inability to define God as an excuse to believe anything that suits us.

It is my position that many of the attributes given to God by all religions violate any reasonable definition of God or any perfect being. If you want to believe that God condones the beheading of someone because of their beliefs, then you are free to do so. But that belief violates basic logic when applied to a truly supreme being. If you think it makes a difference to God as to whether you are a man or woman when it comes to serving him or her, believe it. But from a logical point of view that is ridiculous. If you want to believe word for word some stories that were told about God to teach rather than describe, enjoy yourself. But don't ask us to believe that God incinerated whole cities because he had a bad day.

Then there are the others who like to describe God as energy, or some thing. If you designate an inanimate object, no matter how powerful, as God, then that object is not God. I or you would be more godly than that God because we have a personality, which this object would not gave.

We might be imperfect. But that doesn't mean that we can't question and reject notions about God which make no sense. And this is an important responsibility of philosophy. Too many evil people justify their actions as being consistent with their definition if God. And their definition is not honest, but warped. We will always have many grey areas. But there are some ideas about God and the resulting morality which need to be tossed into the trash bin as a result of more logical and honest thought. If God exists, he or she would appreciate it, as would any one of us.
A set of very commonly held and seemingly reasonable opinions. But ultimately just opinions.
"As usual... it depends."
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

tommarcus wrote: August 16th, 2018, 10:30 am First and most importantly if we are talking about God then we are talking about the most powerful, perfect and most good being that exists.
That might be your God or the God you are agnostic about or atheist about, but if we are speaking in general, God need not be those things.
Any being less than that is not God.
Do you mean God could not be incredibly powerful, able to make a universe and affect and control it, etc, but cannot kill itself or cannot break logic, etc? I don't see how one could know this.
Now if God exists, he or she would either be the epitome of selfishness or the epitome of goodness.

Why could God not be mixed? Like we are. Some of what we call good, some of what we call bad.

Being infinite, there would be no limitation in either direction. It should be fair to say that selfishness is a much lower value than goodness or unselfishness.
You justified God being either absolutely good OR selfish based on God's being infinite. This is one of your claims serving as a premise for another claim. Why couldn't he be infinite and moody? And why must God be infinite?

So if our being was not God and chose to be totally selfish then we wouldn't be here, assuming he at least had the power to create or destroy the universe. That would be a perfect example of supreme selfishness. But if he was in fact a true God, we would definitely be here because to be unselfish requires that he shares existence with others.
Unless existence is hard and he doesn't want others to share it. Or God is selfish and wants others to suffer so he can take his mind of his own suffering.
Now God would create a universe and beings in it for more than just amusement. He doesn't need toys and he probably doesn't get bored. She would create other beings for no less a purpose than that of a simple mother who gives birth. He would create beings who would have more of a purpose than just living for a split second. Even a human mother does more than that. That is why that if there is a God, then he or she created us for some higher purpose.
Or lower purpose. Or any purpose. Or it is the nature of this God that it creates. It is one of the facets of its essence that it must create and creates things that are interesting to it and ot us.
Fooloso4
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Fooloso4 »

tommarcus, you hitch one construct “God” to another construct “Morality” as if conjuring absolute moral authority.
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chewybrian
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by chewybrian »

Fooloso4 wrote: August 19th, 2018, 7:32 am tommarcus, you hitch one construct “God” to another construct “Morality” as if conjuring absolute moral authority.
You might as well rent a building, then, and take advantage of the tax exempt status.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

Right. If there is no absolute creator who made us according to nonarbitrary laws and for a specific reason, then there can be no absolute moral code. We can be moral by living in accordance to what we think is a good moral code. But that would be whatever we would like to think or justify. And if God can be whatever we want him or her to be without regards to logic and reason, as demonstrated by this discussion, then so can our morals.
Fooloso4
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Fooloso4 »

Tommarcus:
And if God can be whatever we want him or her to be without regards to logic and reason, as demonstrated by this discussion, then so can our morals.
There is a fundamental difference. One's beliefs about God need not have any bearing on their actions, but morality is about choices and actions and these have consequences not only for the individual but for others as well.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

tommarcus wrote: August 19th, 2018, 9:24 pm Right. If there is no absolute creator who made us according to nonarbitrary laws and for a specific reason, then there can be no absolute moral code. We can be moral by living in accordance to what we think is a good moral code. But that would be whatever we would like to think or justify. And if God can be whatever we want him or her to be without regards to logic and reason, as demonstrated by this discussion, then so can our morals.
There could be an incredibly powerful much wiser than us deity, rather than a perfect absolute one, and we would still be better off listening to that deity. Just as children can listen to more intelligent and experienced adults and should, only more so. You are presenting the options as binary. If God is not omni-everything, then there is no reason to listen to God. I don't see why that should be the case. We listen to all sorts of experts and a deity could be much more wise and knowledgable than that, but still not be absolute.
tommarcus
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Re: Morals, Morality and God

Post by tommarcus »

Karpel Tunnel,

Your point is well taken. But if God is not the ultimate perfect being, then he or she is something less which implies that that being is less than God. However, you are right, if you don't accept my reasoning, that God's wisdom in any case would be greater than ours.

The problem that I am trying to address is that many people or unscrupulous religious leaders first decide on how they want the world to work, then either assume that there is no God, or that God is imperfect or that God supports their beliefs but that we are too ignorant to understand why. This type of attitude gives them license to define God almost any way they like to support their own bias. In almost all cases such reasoning contradicts the logical definition if any real supreme being.

Hence if men want to control women, they preach that woman should be treated as second class people even though this defies any logical attribute of a supreme being. If certain dictators want to take over other countries, then they justify war and murder to accomplish that goal by arguing that God wants them to kill people who don't share their beliefs. Yet, a truley supreme being would not encourage one of his creatures to kill another for such reasons. Does God really care about where the capital of our country is? Not if he is so far above such imperfect human concerns. Does a perfect God support hate. That would make her imperfect. Would God make someone suffer for eternity because he used a certain type of birth control? We weak humans would consider such punishment cruel and sick.

It is an important role of philosophy to use logic to discard those attributes given to God which are illogical and nonsensical.
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