Correct. Justice had always been synonymous with vengeance. There is a societal notion that vengeance equates to some form of atonement. People pleading for justice typically desire some equal form of retribution as if it restors some kind of moral equilibrium. As long as that is the accepted view of justice I will not support it. I support more productive and rational measures.LuckyR wrote:
So if I understand you correctly, you feel there is no role for vengeance in the modern world, also justice equals vengeance, so is there a role for justice in the modern world?
How do you feel about vengeance?
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
Uummm, no. The two are not universally accepted as synonymous. That may be your opinion, but you are overstating your influence. In current usage, vengeance is typically considered to refer to actions outside the area of the formal justice system.Truthhunter wrote:Correct. Justice had always been synonymous with vengeance. There is a societal notion that vengeance equates to some form of atonement. People pleading for justice typically desire some equal form of retribution as if it restors some kind of moral equilibrium. As long as that is the accepted view of justice I will not support it. I support more productive and rational measures.LuckyR wrote:
So if I understand you correctly, you feel there is no role for vengeance in the modern world, also justice equals vengeance, so is there a role for justice in the modern world?
In addition, a major goal of the justice system is to isolate troublemakers from society to protect society. Any thoughts on that goal?
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
In other words, the modern penal code (at least in western countries) is premised on two principles, that of punishing the individual for the crime they have committed, and of safeguarding the rest of society from them. But I believe that the penal code must be updated to reflect the desire for revenge on the part of the individual(s) who has/have been victimized by the perpertrator, since harm was done to them. The act of punishing the aggressor for the crime doesn't go far enough, because it involves the state acting to punish the individual, rather than including the opinion(s) of the victim(s).
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
So what should have been done (in addition to what actually happened) to Bernie Madoff?Gulistani wrote: ↑December 28th, 2017, 10:58 pm I feel people are entitled to a certain sense of vengeance, that they have a right to seek revenge for wrongs that have been done to them. However, individuals must only be entitled to this, and not whole groups, otherwise it would create an unstable situation. Furthermore, an individual's right to revenge must be regulated by the law, and not by individuals.
In other words, the modern penal code (at least in western countries) is premised on two principles, that of punishing the individual for the crime they have committed, and of safeguarding the rest of society from them. But I believe that the penal code must be updated to reflect the desire for revenge on the part of the individual(s) who has/have been victimized by the perpertrator, since harm was done to them. The act of punishing the aggressor for the crime doesn't go far enough, because it involves the state acting to punish the individual, rather than including the opinion(s) of the victim(s).
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
Those who were scammed by him then have a right to directly determine, and not just the state who represents them.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 29th, 2017, 2:05 amSo what should have been done (in addition to what actually happened) to Bernie Madoff?Gulistani wrote: ↑December 28th, 2017, 10:58 pm I feel people are entitled to a certain sense of vengeance, that they have a right to seek revenge for wrongs that have been done to them. However, individuals must only be entitled to this, and not whole groups, otherwise it would create an unstable situation. Furthermore, an individual's right to revenge must be regulated by the law, and not by individuals.
In other words, the modern penal code (at least in western countries) is premised on two principles, that of punishing the individual for the crime they have committed, and of safeguarding the rest of society from them. But I believe that the penal code must be updated to reflect the desire for revenge on the part of the individual(s) who has/have been victimized by the perpertrator, since harm was done to them. The act of punishing the aggressor for the crime doesn't go far enough, because it involves the state acting to punish the individual, rather than including the opinion(s) of the victim(s).
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
Ah so... I get it. True vengeance. OK. So what role does the State (the Justice system) have in you alternate world?
Do the rabble determine sentence only, or also guilt and innocence?
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
The natural evidence of ignorance and a corrupt heart.
How do you dissuade people from vengeance?
Why would I even try?
Every moment of existence finds us manifesting who and what we are, at this moment! No one can, or should, be talked out of being who and what they are.
Unless who and what they are is someone capable of being talked out of being who and what they are.
Nothing is that is not a feature of the overall Perfection of the Universe, Here! Now!
One moment might actually find me attempting to 'talk them out of' such a foolish act.
Another moment might find me slipping them a knife.
Another might find me just walking on by...
All depends on who and what I Am at that moment.
You cannot. Vengeance is of the ego, and unless someone transcends the ego into Enlightenment/unconditional Love, the fruits of life in Hell continue to display such goodies as hatred and vengeance and ignorance!How can we convince people not to make policy choices based on vengeance?
One can "be the change that you want to see", become Enlightened/unconditionally Loving, and people will come to you asking about that 'Light'!!
The need to convince someone is all ego!
True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!
“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi
tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
Most would not use your definition of vengeanceSBE wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 12:55 am I think vengeance is all around us. Our punitive system is a good example I think. Restorative justice is just to good for some people. But what one wishes on another will reflect back some way. To get out of a vicious cycle, if nothing else, would be to desire to do no harm.
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
Robert Nozick has drawn five conceptual distinctions between retribution and revenge/vengeance:
"(1) Retribution is done for a wrong, while revenge may be done for an injury or harm or slight and need not be for a wrong.
(2) Retribution sets an internal limit to the amount of punishment, according to the seriousness of the wrong, whereas revenge internally need set no limit to what is inflicted. Revenge by its nature need set no limits, although the revenger may limit what he inflicts for external reasons.
(3) Revenge is personal: "this is because of what you did to my ___" (self, father, group, and so on). Whereas the agent of retribution need have no special or personal tie to the victim of the wrong for which he exacts retribution.
…
(4) Revenge involves a particular emotional tone, pleasure in the suffering of another, while retribution either need involve no emotional tone, or involves another one, namely, pleasure at justice being done. Therefore, the thirster after revenge often will want to experience (see, be present at) the situation in which the revengee is suffering, whereas with retribution there is no special point in witnessing its infliction.
…
(5) There need be no generality in revenge. Not only is the revenger not committed to revenging any similar act done to anyone; he is not committed to avenging all done to himself. Whether he seeks vengeance, or thinks it appropriate to do so, will depend upon how he feels at the time about the act of injury. Whereas the imposer of retribution, inflicting deserved punishment for a wrong, is committed to (the existence of some) general principles (prima facie) mandating punishment in other similar circumstances. Furthermore, if possible these general standards will be made known and clear in the process of retribution; even those who act in retribution against the guilty agents of a torturing dictatorship, keeping their identities secret, will make the principles known.
In drawing these contrasts between retribution and revenge, I do not deny that there can be mixed cases, or that people can be moved by mixed motives, partially a desire for retribution, partially a desire for revenge, or that a stated desire can mask another one that is operative."
(Nozick, Robert. Philosophical Explanations. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1981. pp. 366-8)
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Re: How do you feel about vengeance?
That was the distinction I was trying to make back on page 8 in 2016Consul wrote: ↑September 13th, 2018, 11:29 pm Recommended reading: Retributive Justice (in the SEP)
Robert Nozick has drawn five conceptual distinctions between retribution and revenge/vengeance:
"(1) Retribution is done for a wrong, while revenge may be done for an injury or harm or slight and need not be for a wrong.
(2) Retribution sets an internal limit to the amount of punishment, according to the seriousness of the wrong, whereas revenge internally need set no limit to what is inflicted. Revenge by its nature need set no limits, although the revenger may limit what he inflicts for external reasons.
(3) Revenge is personal: "this is because of what you did to my ___" (self, father, group, and so on). Whereas the agent of retribution need have no special or personal tie to the victim of the wrong for which he exacts retribution.
…
(4) Revenge involves a particular emotional tone, pleasure in the suffering of another, while retribution either need involve no emotional tone, or involves another one, namely, pleasure at justice being done. Therefore, the thirster after revenge often will want to experience (see, be present at) the situation in which the revengee is suffering, whereas with retribution there is no special point in witnessing its infliction.
…
(5) There need be no generality in revenge. Not only is the revenger not committed to revenging any similar act done to anyone; he is not committed to avenging all done to himself. Whether he seeks vengeance, or thinks it appropriate to do so, will depend upon how he feels at the time about the act of injury. Whereas the imposer of retribution, inflicting deserved punishment for a wrong, is committed to (the existence of some) general principles (prima facie) mandating punishment in other similar circumstances. Furthermore, if possible these general standards will be made known and clear in the process of retribution; even those who act in retribution against the guilty agents of a torturing dictatorship, keeping their identities secret, will make the principles known.
In drawing these contrasts between retribution and revenge, I do not deny that there can be mixed cases, or that people can be moved by mixed motives, partially a desire for retribution, partially a desire for revenge, or that a stated desire can mask another one that is operative."
(Nozick, Robert. Philosophical Explanations. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1981. pp. 366-8)
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