How do you feel about vengeance?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
Starfleet
Posts: 38
Joined: September 26th, 2016, 8:22 pm

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by Starfleet »

Sometimes it's necessary to engage in vengeance. The law can only go so far.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by LuckyR »

Great one liner that sums up actual human behavior (as opposed to that loftily considered but rarely/never practiced).
"As usual... it depends."
Vijaydevani
Posts: 2116
Joined: March 28th, 2014, 3:13 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Vengeance and punishment are poor substitutes for reform and restitution/compensation. Till we figure out effective methods for reform and restitution/compensation, we will continue with vengeance and punishment though neither of them serve any real purpose other than maybe some psychological satisfaction.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by LuckyR »

Vijaydevani wrote:Vengeance and punishment are poor substitutes for reform and restitution/compensation. Till we figure out effective methods for reform and restitution/compensation, we will continue with vengeance and punishment though neither of them serve any real purpose other than maybe some psychological satisfaction.
Your post would be true if "reform" actually worked. Since it usually doesn't, then here in Real Life, vengeance and punishment will have to do...
"As usual... it depends."
Vijaydevani
Posts: 2116
Joined: March 28th, 2014, 3:13 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by Vijaydevani »

LuckyR wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote:Vengeance and punishment are poor substitutes for reform and restitution/compensation. Till we figure out effective methods for reform and restitution/compensation, we will continue with vengeance and punishment though neither of them serve any real purpose other than maybe some psychological satisfaction.
Your post would be true if "reform" actually worked. Since it usually doesn't, then here in Real Life, vengeance and punishment will have to do...
Reforms could work if we found an effect way to do it. The biggest hurdle against reform is the non-acceptance of past criminals by society which is understandable. If we can find a way around that, there might be some hope.

There are the un-reformables though. Those have to be taken out of society and isolated or eliminated not as punishment but as a protective measure.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by LuckyR »

Vijaydevani wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Your post would be true if "reform" actually worked. Since it usually doesn't, then here in Real Life, vengeance and punishment will have to do...
Reforms could work if we found an effect way to do it. The biggest hurdle against reform is the non-acceptance of past criminals by society which is understandable. If we can find a way around that, there might be some hope.

There are the un-reformables though. Those have to be taken out of society and isolated or eliminated not as punishment but as a protective measure.
Well your post is absolutely correct as written. Not dissimilar to the idea that flying cars would work great, if we could figure out a way to make them work.
"As usual... it depends."
Vijaydevani
Posts: 2116
Joined: March 28th, 2014, 3:13 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by Vijaydevani »

LuckyR wrote: Reforms could work if we found an effect way to do it. The biggest hurdle against reform is the non-acceptance of past criminals by society which is understandable. If we can find a way around that, there might be some hope.

There are the un-reformables though. Those have to be taken out of society and isolated or eliminated not as punishment but as a protective measure.
Well your post is absolutely correct as written. Not dissimilar to the idea that flying cars would work great, if we could figure out a way to make them work.[/quote]
:D . Well, we are getting there with the flying cars. So maybe we will get there with reforms too.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
User avatar
The Philosopher
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: January 31st, 2017, 5:59 pm

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by The Philosopher »

The difficult thing with vengeance is to revenge the right person and not everyone you are in position to harm, as usually happen. Few people have the quality to resist this, the most of people fill their souls with anger and unload it to any weak person on their way, guilty for anything or not, this quality of controlling vengeance actually distinct the good from the bad people, it is the essence.
BraveHat
Posts: 23
Joined: January 13th, 2012, 8:49 pm

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by BraveHat »

There are three ways to respond to being wronged. 1. Vengeance, which is doing wrong in response to being wronged. 2. Silence, which is doing nothing in response to being wronged. 3. Healing, which is doing right in response to being wronged. Whilst I have no set opinion yet about which of the first two options are worse, I do opine that the third option is the best way if one can manage it.

My problem with vengeance, at least the kind enacted by a human being, leaving talk of gods and the like out of this, is that I firmly believe a human being is disturbed primarily by his or her own judgements. Thus when a human being commits another wrong against the one perceived to have cause the damage, it is both ineffective and further damaging. It is ineffective because the true harm is within oneself. It is further damaging, because of the collateral damage it causes to an infinite number of by-standing forces not responsible for the original act. However, vengeance can be an act of caring and often times courage. Such are virtues who's benefits may possibly trump the damage, as they are often conducive to reparations as well.

My problem with silence, at least continued silence despite wrongs that need to be addressed, is that it tacitly gives permission for further wrong doings by the original offender and/or to would be offenders, by removing the urgency of redress. The urgency itself is built into the natural impulse for redress which is suppressed in the will to remain silent. However, it doesn't cause extraneous damage as vengeance does, nor does it distract one from self-redress.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by LuckyR »

BraveHat wrote:There are three ways to respond to being wronged. 1. Vengeance, which is doing wrong in response to being wronged. 2. Silence, which is doing nothing in response to being wronged. 3. Healing, which is doing right in response to being wronged. Whilst I have no set opinion yet about which of the first two options are worse, I do opine that the third option is the best way if one can manage it.

My problem with vengeance, at least the kind enacted by a human being, leaving talk of gods and the like out of this, is that I firmly believe a human being is disturbed primarily by his or her own judgements. Thus when a human being commits another wrong against the one perceived to have cause the damage, it is both ineffective and further damaging. It is ineffective because the true harm is within oneself. It is further damaging, because of the collateral damage it causes to an infinite number of by-standing forces not responsible for the original act. However, vengeance can be an act of caring and often times courage. Such are virtues who's benefits may possibly trump the damage, as they are often conducive to reparations as well.

My problem with silence, at least continued silence despite wrongs that need to be addressed, is that it tacitly gives permission for further wrong doings by the original offender and/or to would be offenders, by removing the urgency of redress. The urgency itself is built into the natural impulse for redress which is suppressed in the will to remain silent. However, it doesn't cause extraneous damage as vengeance does, nor does it distract one from self-redress.
Your comments, like many on this thread, declare that retaliation is pointless because the harm has been done and retaliation just creates another harm and does nothing about the first event. While those observations are correct, they are also incomplete. The value of retaliation is not to address the past wrong, rather to prevent the future harm of a repeated event.

Anyone with a kid or even a dog knows that if there are no consequences for performing a behavior, you will encourage more of that behavior.
"As usual... it depends."
BraveHat
Posts: 23
Joined: January 13th, 2012, 8:49 pm

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by BraveHat »

LuckyR wrote: Your comments, like many on this thread, declare that retaliation is pointless because the harm has been done and retaliation just creates another harm and does nothing about the first event. While those observations are correct, they are also incomplete. The value of retaliation is not to address the past wrong, rather to prevent the future harm of a repeated event.

Anyone with a kid or even a dog knows that if there are no consequences for performing a behavior, you will encourage more of that behavior.
If you read what I wrote more carefully, you'll see that I've already acknowledged that vengeance can or might possibly have that potential value. How much of that value, insofar as it is motivated purely by vengeance, offsets the continued harm by the avenger is an open question. Further, I've also acknowledged that failing to redress a wrong act can have an equal, if not more, damaging effect. So I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is, since we seem to agree. Healing doesn't mean allowing something wrong to continue and just focusing on the victims, be they yourself or others. It means doing right as a response. Perhaps "Righteous Action" is a better term. If you catch someone committing a crime, for example, and have no means to rectify it interpersonally, the correct thing to do is report it to the police. This would not be an act of vengeance, but of righteous action.
Dissimulation
Posts: 37
Joined: March 23rd, 2017, 12:38 pm

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by Dissimulation »

The ethical implications of Vengeance in it of itself is difficult to defend in a strictly objective dialectical way. The common use of the word can both imply negative or positive inferences. In the article it is asked 'who has the moral right to actualize vengeance' and offers empathy or compassion as the correct course of action without justification. Its quite concerning that law is so often equivocated with justice or morality. Law as it is, is the institutional mandate of restricted actions enforced by violence, intentional violence is often the primary argument against vengeance. History and the present world state vividly shows us that often many of the most horrific acts are committed by the very institutions that represent the law or preach compassion. The most troubling difficulty in assigning moral judgement to an act of vengeance is the obvious inability to verify the intention of the act, Vengeance requires willful intention. Given the subjective nature of individuality and the absence of a concrete universal mandate of behavior it seems contention and the possibility of violence will persist as long as human individuality as we understand it persists. Who has the moral right to demand I love my neighbor ? Love and Hate are used so casually, possibly dogmatically. Love as an absolute expression of passion ought not to be given or entitled, love for a thing, an idea, a person etc is the highest expression one individual can bestow upon another. Love is duty, the object of my love is the highest ethical consideration outside of myself - if not its merely a 'pretty notion'. That duty demands of me that I do all that is necessary to protect the object of my love, even if it requires my life, my freedom or harder still to commit an act that instills in you the worst terror, guilt or anxiety. With that said, it also requires an understanding and critical thought of the situation as it is. Do reject vengeance universally is no different then to embrace passivity. When conditions arise that would merit violence or vengeance it may be ethically necessary to act. Much of the discussion presupposes an obligation to all humans, Why ?

The notion of rehabilitating prisoners and abolishing prisons is a fallacy. Pedophiles, sociopaths, various ethical systems in contention with society etc
will not be dissuaded, often they are genetically determined. logically it would only require a single individual to manipulate such a system. Intentional violence is may or may not be a moral right (define) but I would argue its possibly an ethical necessity.
User avatar
Widdums
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: March 18th, 2017, 1:23 pm

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by Widdums »

At 87 years old I have been here long enough to appreciate the good bits and to suffer the bad bits. I shall leave sometime soon. What I most want to do is to understand what has happened to me during the short time of my existence. I may arrive at an understanding only with help from others who freely share their experience, feelings, perceptions with me. The human is not an individual. He/she can only arrive at completeness surrounded by others.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by LuckyR »

Widdums wrote:At 87 years old I have been here long enough to appreciate the good bits and to suffer the bad bits. I shall leave sometime soon. What I most want to do is to understand what has happened to me during the short time of my existence. I may arrive at an understanding only with help from others who freely share their experience, feelings, perceptions with me. The human is not an individual. He/she can only arrive at completeness surrounded by others.
Welcome, please share your accumulated wisdom, especially as it pertains to the issue of vengeance.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Kinyonga
Posts: 21
Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:15 am

Re: How do you feel about vengeance?

Post by Kinyonga »

I have not read through the whole topic, so perhaps someone has already said this, but food for thought: "An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind."
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021