Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Woodart
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Woodart » May 14th, 2017, 8:53 pm

Lucylu wrote: But the cynic in me says that the first use will probably be to create the perfect soldier or the perfect worker drone!
Well - I am more of a cynic than you - we will create the perfect soldier, worker drone and sex worker - all in one!

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Vishnu » July 5th, 2017, 6:21 am

In a very general sense - yes anger, discompassion (or lack of compassion) and hatred can be categorized as weak (atleast "morally" we wish to say so)

But if we deep dive into those emotions, then the question that arises is "weak" in what sense? Those feelings or emotions do not exist in vacuum right? Those emotions exist in the mind of a human being ( I am not getting ethology to discuss these emotions in context of other animals). Now whom are you assigning the adjective "weak" to? The body of the person in whose mind those feelings are present ? Mind in which those feelings are present? or the intensity of the feeling itself? Or the consequences arising due to presence of those emotions in the mind of a person? Or the "soul" influenced by those emotions?

Body: Physical strength of a body may not have strong correlation to those emotions (anger, discompassion or hatred)

Mind: Would we rate Hitler's mind as a weak mind, despite all his anger, lack of compassion and hatred towards Jews? We may say that Hitler's brain functioning is weak in dealing with neurotransmitters involved in joy, compassion and love. But we can definitely not say that his "thinking" ability is weak.

Consequences: Taking a utilitarian view we can rate the effect of those emotions as weak or strong based on net negative utility generated as outcome of those emotions : If anger, hatred and lack of compassion (as in case of Hitler) cause large net negative utility for the society then the effect of those emotions need to categorized as strong

Intensity of the Emotion: Intensity of the emotion can be measured using fMRI. Robert Plutchik's "Wheel of Emotions" also comes handy in describing the type and intensity of emotions.

Soul: Coming back to where we started. When we generally refer to anger, hatred and lack of compassion as signs of weakness, we are referring to the "soul" influenced by such emotions. While the "soul" itself is a debatable term, I am using this term as reference to the immaterial part of human being as defined in Bhagavad Geeta. We would like to categorize such souls as weak souls (again not weak minds or bodies). Again it is not very straight forward to categorize a soul influenced by such emotions as weak souls. What if someone has hatred towards terrorists who were involved in 9/11? Those terrorists created large negative utility for society. So can we categorize the souls that hate such terrorists as weak? If we see this in the light of "Doctrine of Double Effect" of St. Thomas Aquinas, then the intent of the hatred in such case is not immoral, such hatred is not creating bad consequences, the negative effects of such hatred aren't outweighing the positive effects. So then we may not categorize such soul as weak soul.

In summary, philosophically it is too simplistic to say "hatred, lack of compassion and anger are symptoms of weakness". It depends on the dimension from which you are looking at these (or any other) emotions.

But yes as a human tribe, we would want to call them as symptoms of weakness so as to inculcate better utilitarian morals in the society.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Taschenrechner » August 2nd, 2017, 8:07 am

In response to Scott, I think his points are valid and support the question regarding weakness.

What about parenting? If you are angry at a child for a mistake, is it because of weakness? If you are discompassionate, such as making your new-grad pay for their rent to stay in your home, is that because of weakness?

You want them to succeed and learn. But is that qualified as a weakness? Intuitiv3infid3l touches on it here:
Intuitiv3infid3l wrote:If anything, compassion is actually a weakness because it is conforming to other people for the sake of being accepted and to get a temporary 'feel good' rush instead of fighting for morality (making the system into a justice-providing one).

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Jan Pahl
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Jan Pahl » September 7th, 2017, 12:34 pm

anger, discompassion, hate and many others are natural human responses, if they are with our emotional "tool box", had to be a useful by definition.

Like all emotions, motivations and drives the act of split them by dichotomic positive or negative valence is evidence of not have a complete view of being human in all its aspects.

The problem is how to sublime and use in a proper way not only what here is considered with negative valence, but also what is considered with positive valence according to the circumstance.

All ethical systems even if they in fact dichotomise human behavioural, cognitive and emotional reality by valence, can be subject to be corrected without losing the main core of that system

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by Dlaw » January 11th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Jan Pahl wrote:
September 7th, 2017, 12:34 pm
anger, discompassion, hate and many others are natural human responses, if they are with our emotional "tool box", had to be a useful by definition.
Actually, they had to be useful *at some time to some ancestor*. We evolve traits discreetly, over time.

[quote}
Like all emotions, motivations and drives the act of split them by dichotomic positive or negative valence is evidence of not have a complete view of being human in all its aspects.

The problem is how to sublime and use in a proper way not only what here is considered with negative valence, but also what is considered with positive valence according to the circumstance.

All ethical systems even if they in fact dichotomise human behavioural, cognitive and emotional reality by valence, can be subject to be corrected without losing the main core of that system
[/quote]

I think I follow your argument about valence, but I'm not sure. I would think, that the question would first be what kind of "weakness" we're talking about here. Is it a weakness of fatigue - like a person might get when subjected to stress over time? Is it an inherent weakness caused by disease organic or acquired? Is it a weakness born of ignorance, where the person is shocked to find their preconceived solutions don't work?

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Namelesss » March 10th, 2018, 4:38 pm

Scott wrote:
March 23rd, 2008, 10:51 am
Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?
'Weakness' is a vague and meaningless term unless clearly defined (always 'conditional'), which it is not!
"Anger, discompassion ('apathy' might be the word that you seek) and hatred" are signs of ignorance and insanity!
'Insanity and ignorance' can be seen as a 'weakness' in certain lights, from certain Perspectives.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Namelesss » March 10th, 2018, 5:03 pm

All forms of health are predicated on the ability to Love, unconditionally!
'Compassion' (like Empathy and Sympathy...) is an unconditional Virtue of unconditional Love!

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by ernestm » March 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm

Sometimes. But more often it is due to hate propaganda.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Namelesss » March 10th, 2018, 9:36 pm

ernestm wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm
Sometimes. But more often it is due to hate propaganda.
Is falling for propaganda not a sign of weakness?

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ernestm
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by ernestm » March 11th, 2018, 10:26 pm

Namelesss wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 9:36 pm
ernestm wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm
Sometimes. But more often it is due to hate propaganda.
Is falling for propaganda not a sign of weakness?
I dont think so necessarily, because if someone doesn't know something, they could just be innocent. If they had the means to understand, but chose not to, then maybe it could be called weakness, but it is not how it is normally viewed.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness

Post by chewybrian » May 13th, 2018, 8:09 am

snus27 wrote:
September 2nd, 2011, 12:42 am
Anger can be motivating. It is difficult to see how to overthrow a tyranny by meekness and stoicism.
(New guy here, slowly reading the old threads, so this response is very late)

Stoicism and meekness are different things. Stoicism places a huge focus on reducing, or eliminating anger, at least as a motivation. But, the opposite of anger, for the stoic, is not fear, weakness, impotence or incompetence, but rational action. Responding to fear, hate and mistrust in kind leads to more of the same, or damage to the angry person, so it is not productive.

It starts with the little things. Someone cuts in front of you in line at the 7-11. You get angry, even if you are a stoic. But, the stoic delays action against a minor 'injustice'. On calm reflection, it becomes clear that acting on anger would have injured both parties, and maybe others.

If you were not a stoic, but, say, someone paid you 1000 dollars to delay action for 24 hours, would you come back the next day and yell at that person? Probably not, because with time and the diminishing of anger, you can see how unproductive it would be. Most people who would yell on day one would also say you were a bit psycho for yelling about it on day two, yet the perceived injustice is the same. Anger falsely justifies an irrational response. Time allows for a rational response, which is often no response.

But, stoics also aspire to live the cardinal virtues, including justice and courage. Many a copy of The Enchiridion has been carried into battle. True injustice, or duty, may sometimes call for such action. Where battle is not called for, stoic action can be very effective. MLK strikes me as a great example, though I don't know if stoicism was a motivator for him. The truth, persistence and courage are all effective tools that don't need the extra baggage of hate.

Anger is a tool for the fearful and weak, Stoics turn away from anger, but that does anything but make them weak, feraful or ineffective. Ironically, a high grade stoic would probably laugh at my unnecessary attempt at a defense, and say that truth never needs defending. But, I'm low grade and trying to learn, so I will give my thoughts for the opportunity to learn, by constructing my thoughts, or being shown where I went wrong.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Namelesss » May 13th, 2018, 7:05 pm

ernestm wrote:
March 11th, 2018, 10:26 pm
Namelesss wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 9:36 pm

Is falling for propaganda not a sign of weakness?
I dont think so necessarily, because if someone doesn't know something, they could just be innocent. If they had the means to understand, but chose not to, then maybe it could be called weakness, but it is not how it is normally viewed.
Sorry, seem to have missed this one.
Can not such 'ignorance/innocence', as you use it, not be considered a weakness, at times?
Innocence (ignorance) on a battlefield might not be considered a 'strength'.
Calling ignorance innocence doesn't 'change' anything.

How can anyone 'choose to' not Know something?
We either need to Know it or not.
Everything Known is on a 'need to Know' basis!

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Brian5 » May 19th, 2018, 6:28 pm

Anger is a secondary response to the id many are born but few denied desire. look these men who want love but are ugly. In this world mantake y are born but few are happy. The whole **** show is war and winner take all. Our circumstance will decide.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Name Is Unnecessary » May 25th, 2018, 12:16 pm

This has probably been written, but I am not willing to search through the 160+ replies for it, so I am going to write it now.

Scott writes in the OP:
Namely, I think people get frustrated from their own weakness, which makes them angry, disompassionate, and hateful and makes them more likely to resort to violence and other primitive and brutish techniques (not as form of defense but as a means of offensive attack and control).
Scott gives this example in the OP:
In another example, if you back an animal into a corner, making it feel scared and weak, it will lash out violently and erratically, which in humans would be called anger, discompassion, or hatred.
The animal would be clearly defending itself. Away from the dry note, can't what you described be considered a form of defense too, defense of the ego?

It is not always the case that weakness causes violent acts. A generally aggressive person may take what they want by force, or at least through physically or emotionally harmful actions. Such a person is used to this from childhood. If you ask that one person, whose violent behaviour is this time caused by weakness, they may hide the real reason. Or the weakness may only affect their actions unconsciously, as much as this could work.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 28th, 2018, 5:02 pm

Scott wrote:
March 23rd, 2008, 10:51 am
Do you think that anger, discompassion and hatred are usually symptoms of weakness? Why or why not?
They could be, but not as a rule. One can be angry because someone treats you poorly. You react with anger, they get it, they treat you better. You can feel discompassion when someone makes a big deal about their problems, when it comes down to entitlement and you are facing much harder issues yourself. I, personally, find it hard not to hate what hates me, if we are in close proximity. They need not show it loudly, but if it infects the interactions and I pick it up, after a time I will likely also feel it. Unless they are brain damaged, for example. These are fairly natural human reactions to a wide range of stimuli and have their place. Certainly one can get into bad habit by staying with these reactions instead of noticing that really other feelings and reactions are present. But I see no rule here.

In contrast, wouldn't you say that compassion is generally a sign of strength and clearheadedness? I would. Martin Luther King Jr. is one of the strongest historical figures I can think of, and I believe he is a great example of how genuine strength enables a person to act on their love and to influence society without resorting to the destructive use of offensive violence and judgmental vengeance associated with anger, discompassion and hatred?
One does not have to choose between offensive violence and being loving and compassionate to one's enemies - that is those people who have chosen to abuse and hate you. MLK had a great deal of greatness, but in this sense I don't think he was a great role model.

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