Is Selfishness Compatible with Kindness?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
MadScience
Posts: 36
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 8:43 am

Post by MadScience »

Belinda wrote:Enlightened self interest.
Enlightened self-interest says that people should help others because it will help them in the long run. It encourages people to act altruistically. That is not my point at all. My claim is that we are genetically sculpted to be truly altruistic.

This altruism is weighed against our instincts for self-preservation and at times can be overwhelmed, but that doesn't negate the fact that humans genuinely want to help each other. If you see a stranger's child fall into a river, your first response is to try to save the child. If you can't swim and are afraid of drowning this may limit your rescue attempts, but for the most part you aren't going to be worried about ruining your shoes. There is certainly no thoughts about how saving the child will help you at some point later in life, although that may well be the case.
Belinda wrote:But there is more to morality than this. There are also inherent affections towards e.g. near relatives and friends or pets etc.which may act counter to rational enlightened self interest.
Your examples are completely consistent with evolution; self-preservation and societal concerns combine to produce stronger ties to those that are closer to us, including are pets. I can see that enlightened self interest would see this phenomenon as somewhat problematic, and I would agree with that view. That is I think that modern society is broader based and more interconnected which calls for a higher level of altruism with less emphasis on the self and those immediately around us. Understanding how we got where we are can help us understand where we want to go in the future.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13820
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Post by Belinda »

I completely agree with Mad Science's elaboration and explanation of what I wrote regarding enlightened self interest.
Socialist
edelker
Posts: 1186
Joined: June 10th, 2009, 2:27 am

Post by edelker »

Hello all,


Scott wrote,


“Many people, including myself, argue that all people are inherently self-interested because, by definition, a person desires and values what he or she desires and values. Those desires and values also develop into goals, and the person makes their decisions in an attempt to most fulfill those desires, values, and goals.”


The assumption seems to be that because people are inherently ‘self-interested’ (meaning that they have desires and values which develop into goals and other self-directed actions) that they ought to do so! I’m wholly uncertain on two points: (1) the argument gets off to a bad start with somewhat spacious reasoning: because such and such is the case that it ought to be right for people to do so, and (2) the argument is motivated by use of a rather troubled ontological assumption—that there’s a self and whatever that self ethically desires or chooses is appropriate for satisfying such self-desires and so on. However, one of the troubled aspects of selfishness is that it is often unreflective, harmfully encourages the pursuit of goals that damage rather than contributes in some compassionate way, and is often apathetic to the sufferings of others! I think these qualities are what most thinkers of an altruistic nature are thinking when they clearly recognize a conflict between egoistic oriented ethics and altruistically oriented ethics. So, yes, logically, and depending on the circumstance we’re discussing, one can take Scott’s highly qualified version of selfishness and say that selfishness is compatible with selflessness. However, such a distinction is seemingly too artificial to be of much help in practicality. After all, the real meat of this issue is over what theory and impulse should guide our ethical theory and practice when conflict is to be considered!


Additionally, I would like to know how is it that we seem to be so certain that all people have desires and values in the way that has been outlined here. After all, much of human history could arguably be viewed more altruistically oriented than selfish! In basic, human nature’s ultimate desire is for community and general good will. This may be compatible with Scott’s thought here, but it certainly demands the justificatory basis of establishing that our higher impulse or nature is self-oriented and not group oriented categorically!


Also, such an approach seems to lack a theoretical prerequisite of logical interest: the problem I see with selfishness as an ethical guide is that it seems to be assumed without justification that what ‘I’ value possesses some special ethical category and those ‘others’ who’s goals and values differ from mine are to be seen as less significant. However, we have no reason for thinking this! In basic, such ethical theory appears to be based on similar grounds as racism, dividing people into two distinct ethical categories on the basis of some supposed inequality. If others interests-at the ethical level- are comparable to our own, although- we may act for self at different non-ethical levels of human interests and activity, then we have no clear ethical theoretical line of delineation between the so-called self-interest of ‘me’ and ‘others.’ Therefore, the thing that appears to justify helping others, which is based on Scott’s idea of self-interest, is found wanting.


Thanks all,


Eric D.
Myuncle
Posts: 14
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Post by Myuncle »

It might be that everything we do is selfish, and altruism is just a word, and idea, I hope we all agree that when we talk about altruism we mean something opposed to selfishness, something that you do even if it's not convenient for you, when you sacrifice yourself even if you don't like it or wouldn't like it. For example if you sacrifice your life for others or you give up lots of money you feel rewarded mentally, but at the same time you are doing something not convenient for you materialistically. So being altruist it's nothing but a positive selfishness, that's why when we say selfishness we mean only the bad kind, "greed" in other words. Durkheim, saying that "altruism is merely a concealed egoism", he was just talking about the positive kind of egoism. We have to love ourselves otherwise we can't even help the others. But there is no need to make things more complicated then they are. We use to say "I want to be altruistic, I want to love you, I want to be kind and generous" instead of "I want to be a concealed egoist, I want to be a concealed selfish", there must be a reason for that. It's all about words, the problem is do we want to agree about what words mean or do we want to create a new dictionary just to make us feel important?
Dewey
Premium Member
Posts: 830
Joined: October 28th, 2007, 1:45 pm
Location: California

Post by Dewey »

I don't have all the theoretical knowledge about selfishness (or self interestedness) versus kindness that's displayed in this forum. I have benefitted from reading it. But I haven't been able to draw from it a definitive moral position enabling me to formulate an operating policy for myself.. And I'm not confident that many of us could do so.

More specifically, I wonder whether what has been said really helps the individual in the daily business of deciding how to handle a particular relationship, of determining whose interest to serve at this moment and by what means. We may need more than a generalized theory or overall policy (assuming that we have developed such).

Into this breach,for me at least, walks John Dewey and his ideas about morality. I'm still struggling to understand them in detail, but am already sold on them overall. I loosely interpret his criticism of the methodology reflected in this forum as a claim that when it comes down to handling individual cases, we get so tangled up theorizing over the MEANS of attaining an ethical END to the transaction that we fail to attain that end. Mr Dewey says we must be more pragmatic, more utility-minded,and keep our eye on the likely or actual consequences of what we are doing in this particular matter.

Sounds good to me. How about you?
Myuncle
Posts: 14
Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Post by Myuncle »

Dewey wrote: More specifically, I wonder whether what has been said really helps the individual in the daily business of deciding how to handle a particular relationship, of determining whose interest to serve at this moment and by what means. We may need more than a generalized theory or overall policy (assuming that we have developed such).
I agree with you, generalizing is not very helpful compared to practical examples.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13820
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Post by Belinda »

Mr Dewey says we must be more pragmatic, more utility-minded,and keep our eye on the likely or actual consequences of what we are doing in this particular matter.
I agree. The more knowledgeable we are, and the more we are able to feel for others, the more we are able to deal practically with problems8 that have moral components. Good moral judgements are founded upon twin strengths: feelings for others and knowlege regarding the backgrounds of their problems.

*moral problems = what should I/we/you/they do ?
Socialist
J.Jibawi
Posts: 1
Joined: July 30th, 2011, 12:28 am

Anthem

Post by J.Jibawi »

We are lemmings being led by the least of us.

Jeanine Jibawi
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13820
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Anthem

Post by Belinda »

J.Jibawi wrote:We are lemmings being led by the least of us.

Jeanine Jibawi
So what are you doing about it?
Socialist
Leonid
Posts: 126
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 4:20 pm

Re: Is Selfishness Compatible with Kindness?

Post by Leonid »

Altruism has nothing to do with kindness, in fact it is antithetical to kindness. Altruism is a notion that man has no right to live for himself, that he's only means for the ends of others. The direct consequence of this practice is a total dehumanization. As American philosopher Ayn Rand observed " ... the idea that to value another human being is an act of selflessness... implies that a man can have no personal interest in others-that to value another means to sacrifice oneself-that any love, respect or admiration a man can feel for others is not and cannot be a source of his enjoyment, but is a threat to his existence, a sacrificial blank check signed over to his loved ones"
User avatar
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
The admin formerly known as Scott
Posts: 5765
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: Is Selfishness Compatible with Kindness?

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Leonid, do you have any source or evidence to back up that definition of altruism?

While Any Rand's would be a great source to find out what she means by 'selfishness', I don't think we can take her as a credible source for how the word altruism was defined by her predecessors such as Auguste Comte.

Also, if the term altruism is being described by religious people or people who believe in some sort of relevant supernatural phenomenon (e.g. heaven/hell), then it would be hard to judge the meaning of the word solely by its secular results. One who seems to behave literally selflessly -- which is a contradiction -- in all secular acts, may be acting in their own self-interest insofar as they think this behavior model will buy them a ticket into some kind of supernatural heaven or otherwise bring them 'closer to god' whatever that may mean.

Rand like me is an atheist, so we must be diligent not to mistake alleged secular selflessness with alleged full selflessness particularly when reading the writings of people like Rand and I because we often will forget the potential for non-secular selflessness and may not explicitly make it clear when we are only talking about a specific subset of alleged selflessness.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Leonid
Posts: 126
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 4:20 pm

Re: Is Selfishness Compatible with Kindness?

Post by Leonid »

Scott:Leonid, do you have any source or evidence to back up that definition of altruism? While Any Rand's would be a great source to find out what she means by 'selfishness', I don't think we can take her as a credible source for how the word altruism was defined by her predecessors such as Auguste Comte."



If Ayn Rand is not a reliable source, let see how Auguste Comte himself defined altruism:

"The individual must subordinate himself to an Existence outside himself in order to find in it the source of his stability. And this condition cannot be effectually realized except under the impulse of propensities prompting him to live for others... Thus the expression, Live for Others, is the simplest summary of the whole moral code of Positivism." (Comte 1973a, 565–56)

The social point of view cannot tolerate the notion of rights, for such notion rests on individualism. We are born under a load of obligations of every kind, to our predecessors, to our successors, to our contemporaries. After our birth these obligations increase or accumulate, for it is some time before we can return any service.... This to live for others, the definitive formula of human morality, gives a direct sanction exclusively to our instincts of benevolence, the common source of happiness and duty. Man must serve Humanity, whose we are entirely." ( Comte, Catéchisme Positiviste)

Dictionary definition of Altruism is "the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others ( opposed to egoism)."

That exactly how Ayn Rand defined Altruism.

-
User avatar
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
The admin formerly known as Scott
Posts: 5765
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: Is Selfishness Compatible with Kindness?

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

It seems more like how I defined altruism, as unselfishness not literal selflessness, which is compatible with kindness. For instance, the definition you give above from Comte says:
This to live for others, the definitive formula of human morality, gives a direct sanction exclusively to our instincts of benevolence, the common source of happiness and duty.
Thanks for posting that. That was my original point: We all (except psychopaths) have a natural sympathy or "instinct of benevolence" that rewards us with happiness when we make others happy. Kindness is thus not only compatible with this so-called altruism but kindness is usually a self-interested action.

Comte, of course, wouldn't appeal to one's instinct of benevolence if he wanted one to reject their own self completely. Indeed, true selflessness is utter non-sense.

In contrast, Rand seems to be talking about literal selflessness, i.e. doing charitable things not because it makes oneself happy to help others due to one's "instincts of benevolence" or what I would call ones non-psychopathy but because one somehow just doesn't have any desires at all or somehow acts but without acting on one's desires, which seems to imply some sort of death or zombie-like state.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Leonid
Posts: 126
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 4:20 pm

Re: Is Selfishness Compatible with Kindness?

Post by Leonid »

Kindness or benevolence is an ability to value-it has nothing to do with instincts. Nobody feels kindness indiscriminatory by instinct to say Nazi or terrorist unless one shares their values. In other words kindness is a result of sharing and exchange of values. Therefore person cannot value others before he values himself. As Ayn Rand put it " To say " I love you" one first should be able to say " I" and to mean it". Selfless or altruistic person who lives exclusively for the sake of others doesn't value himself and unable to feel any kindness. Selflessness is a great dehumanizer . That is true that nobody can practice altruism in full, although some people die trying. Most of the people are tearing by mixed premises of altruistic morality which they unable to practice and their healthy self-interest. In this case charity becomes a grudge payment to ease their conscience. One can hardly call this benevolence or kindness. Only person whose main concern is his own value and rational self-interest is capable for benevolence.
User avatar
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
The admin formerly known as Scott
Posts: 5765
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: Is Selfishness Compatible with Kindness?

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

So, you see the difference between what Rand calls altruism -- some impossible idea of there being no I -- as opposed to what pro-altruism philosophers actually mean by the term, what Comte calls the "instinct" of "benevolence" and what most of us know as unselfishness (as opposed to literal selflessness), yes?
Leonid wrote:Nobody feels kindness indiscriminatory by instinct to say Nazi or terrorist unless one shares their values.
I'm no so sure about this. Psychopathy is to empathy what blindness is to sight, but almost all of us are not psychopaths. Thus, causing harm or witness harm caused to other people, even Nazis or terrorists, does cause us instinctive emotional distress. This is as instinctive and physiologically inherent as thinking a certain food tastes good or not. We may still choose to cause such harm if we think it is the so-called 'lesser of two evils' much like we might choose to drink a nasty-tasting medicine.

Causing suffering to anyone or witnessing suffering like eating very bitter food is something that we have been evolutionarily programmed to find emotionally unpleasant. This is an almost universal reason why it is in our self-interest to behave unselfishly. Again, in any given circumstances, there may be other conflicting issues or extenuating circumstances that according to some cost-benefit analysis make some other option preferable such that we may hurt others, behave selfishly or drink extremely bitter disgusting liquid, namely when it is a means to a supposedly greater end such as in the case of a sick person drinking bitter medicine or a crying vet putting down a beloved rabid dog or imprisoning a rapist to protect his would-be victims.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021