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Live as a coward or die as a hero?

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nameless

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Post Number:#46  PostAugust 11th, 2009, 4:43 am

Homicidal Pacifist wrote:
nameless wrote:What makes the average 3 year old any more valuable than an older person, me for instance? I'd think that he he would be, argueably, less valuable. He is all needs, while I contribute much!

Uh... my first problem with that comment is that the fact that he is all needs is not his fault.

No, it is not his "fault", it is his reality. Just as i am is not my "fault" but my reality.

Furthermore, since he is all needs, he oviously needs your help.

If we have shifted the conversation from the todler being a stranger to his being my son, please let me know when you want to change the rules of engagement.
And there are many times that i 'help' strangers, whether toddlers or ancients or anyone else. That is my nature, not my 'fault'.

Less valuable???

Heh..
Depends on Perspective, no?

Though he may not be contributing to the world in excess right now (again, not his fault)

He does bring joy (and fertilizer)! *__-

does not mean that his life (had it been saved) will not soon amount to having a much more positive impact on the world than your life.

If he dies, there is not a thing that he 'could have been'. There are no options to that which is.

You're contributing?

There are those who think so.

I'm sure you are, but are you also not contributing by refusing to save his life at the cost of your own?

Hahaha.. There are many moments in all of our lives that we are not directly contributing to society. From another Perspective, though, I contribute even when I meditate, or simply engage in critical thought, or take a bath, or... get the idea? I am also contributing by staying alive and not sacrificing this life for every cause for which some yahoo would see me die.

What contribution can be higher than laying down your own life for the life of a stranger?

What nonsense.
How about finding the cure for AIDS or cancer, for starters? How about feeding my family? How about planting a tree?
It's (value) in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

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Homicidal Pacifist

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Post Number:#47  PostAugust 11th, 2009, 8:31 am

I said, "What contribution can be higher than laying down your own life for the life of a stranger?"

You said, "What nonsense.
How about finding the cure for AIDS or cancer, for starters? How about feeding my family? How about planting a tree?"

Good point. I meant to imply that the willingness to sacrifice your life for another is a very strong and selfless contribution and if everyone was willing to do that there would a lot less lonely victims.

I don't know man, do what you want or what you feel is right, but if I saw not try to save that little girl from getting hit by a car because you might die in the process I would probably not be proud of your action.
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies of the world,
and that is an idea whose time has come."
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Re: .

Post Number:#48  PostAugust 11th, 2009, 10:17 am

Homicidal Pacifist wrote:Good point. I meant to imply that the willingness to sacrifice your life for another is a very strong and selfless contribution

So if the little sh!t grows up to be a pedophile serial killer, that would be considered your 'contribution'? I can accept that possibility and terminology.

and if everyone was willing to do that there would a lot less lonely victims.

Ewwwww! I just had a vision of some young girl in a frilly dress dancing across the meadow, strewing flowers from a basket that she's holding. Blue skys and no pain in the world.
Blessings are painful.
Growth is painful.
Love is painful.
Life is painful.
All the 'if onlys', but they aint and reality is painful. There could be no joy, bliss, without pain.
Whether the one enduring the pain is a "victim" or a 'blessed' person is a matter of Perspective.

I don't know man, do what you want or what you feel is right,

No, like everyone, I act as I must, in accord with my nature.

but if I saw not try to save that little girl from getting hit by a car because you might die in the process I would probably not be proud of your action.

Good. Pride is a 'sin'. So is 'judging' (a feature of pride) others.
Besides, you couldn't possibly know my motive, if any, for not sacrificing myself for some stranger unless you asked me. Or would you just assume? *__-
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Post Number:#49  PostAugust 11th, 2009, 7:45 pm

Juice wrote:I88-And where are the monuments to those individuals?

How is bravery remembered is it by the act or the life? Do we not recognize the flaws of men and champion to rise above those flaws? Is it not bravery when they do?


Show me a monument to a mortal man, and I'll show you a monument to a coward. Not necessarily a man defined by cowardice, or necessarily considered one, but nonetheless a man who has been cowardly.

Individual bravery, in fact, is almost always forgotten.

I'm not saying a man can't be brave, I'm saying everyone is both cowardly and brave - nobody escapes either of them.
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Post Number:#50  PostAugust 11th, 2009, 8:56 pm

"A coward dies a thousand deaths, the hero dies but once" WS
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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Post Number:#51  PostAugust 12th, 2009, 2:57 am

Nameless - You said, "No, like everyone, I act as I must, in accord with my nature."

Man can change, and refrain from his "true" nature. You a robot?

You said, "Good. Pride is a 'sin'. So is 'judging' (a feature of pride) others."

Nice. Again I must rephrase... I would not consider your action admirable/noble/brave/selfless/compassionate/unbiased/or worth writing home about.

And does a courthouse judge or jury sin by handing down a verdict? (Sometimes I think they do.) And if I need to be judged, by all means, judge on.

You said, "Besides, you couldn't possibly know my motive, if any, for not sacrificing myself for some stranger unless you asked me. Or would you just assume? *__-"

I'll ask. But until I get an answer, I'll assume that you did it either for selfish reasons or so that you could go on to help other people. More people. Or people you love rather than a stranger. None of that makes immorality (if that's what it is) morally right. But I guess you'd have to care about morality for that to apply.

And yes, life is pain. And I have gotten used to it. But that does not mean we should not help each other.

You said, "So if the little sh!t grows up to be a pedophile serial killer, that would be considered your 'contribution'?"

Running the risk of the saving a child who might grow up to be a pedaphile is the same risk we take by continuing to populate the earth.
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies of the world,
and that is an idea whose time has come."
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Post Number:#52  PostAugust 12th, 2009, 5:35 am

Juice wrote:
"A coward dies a thousand deaths, the hero dies but once" WS


Which sounds nice, but is absolute fantasy.
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Post Number:#53  PostAugust 14th, 2009, 12:19 am

Rudyard Kipling "Gunga Dinn"
'E carried me away
To where a dooli lay,
An' a bullet come an' drilled the beggar clean. 70
'E put me safe inside,
An' just before 'e died:
"I 'ope you liked your drink," sez Gunga Din.
So I'll meet 'im later on
In the place where 'e is gone— 75
Where it's always double drill and no canteen;
'E'll be squattin' on the coals
Givin' drink to pore damned souls,
An' I'll get a swig in Hell from Gunga Din!

Din! Din! Din! 80
You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!


For the rest; http://www.bartleby.com/103/48.html

From WS "Henry V"
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;

For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.


El Cordobes
Bravery is believing in yourself, and that thing nobody can teach you.


In the aftermath of 911, before even the dust had settled, I knew that those who were trapped could do nothing more than be brave. One young woman who had called a 911 operator and asked that the woman on the other end stay with her as the heat from the blaze cooked her skin off her bones never once asked for mercy, never once did she beg to die, she only prayed with a an unknown voice on the other end. And as it became clear that the buildings would collapse these firemen kept climbing up and up trying to reach a voice people they never knew and died for the futility of the effort.

Yes a fantasy, a voice, tired steps, a falling man. Who cares what they were in life since the end of it is just that, the end of it.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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Post Number:#54  PostAugust 14th, 2009, 2:44 pm

Stating brave deeds doesn't undermine the brute fact that people are also cowards.
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Post Number:#55  PostAugust 14th, 2009, 2:55 pm

I88- To make statements with any providing justification renders any concept without substance and rejectable. A coward in one deed or act is a coward until such time as he is redeemed. A brave individual is inspired to such from inspiration and as such will not commit a cowardly deed.

No offered proofs for any contentions are rejectable.

Please explain this brute fact.
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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Post Number:#56  PostAugust 14th, 2009, 6:39 pm

We all do a lot of courageous things.

We all do a lot of cowardly things.

It all mixes togther. Everyone does both.




To talk of "heroes" and "cowards" is inevitably misleading.
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Post Number:#57  PostAugust 14th, 2009, 6:43 pm

I88-So are you the sole arbiter or definer of what is cowardly and what is brave or can anyone join?

Is there a distinction between a cowardly act and a coward and likewise an act of bravery and a brave individual?
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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Post Number:#58  PostAugust 15th, 2009, 8:56 am

We're all just people, and inherent in that is the presence of brave deeds and cowardly deeds.

"Hero" and "Coward" are just terms used to draw attention to either of these groups of deeds in a person.

There's nothing radical about what I'm saying here. Just that nobody is a fully a hero and nobody is fully a coward.
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Juice

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Post Number:#59  PostAugust 15th, 2009, 9:03 am

I88-So someone can be an anticoward or antibrave and as such be those things by degree or levels? And how is that decided?

There is something radical about what you are saying from your original postings.

Niel Armstrong is a brave man by all accounts what would make him a coward by your standards?
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!
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Invictus_88

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Post Number:#60  PostAugust 15th, 2009, 9:10 am

People we think of as brave have also done cowardly things. We all have.

People we think of as cowardly have also done brave things. We all have.


To lionise people as heroes and condemn others as cowards is to define them on the basis of only one aspect of their life and is consequently pretty misleading.


This makes "live as a coward or die as a hero" pretty redundant. We're all brave, and we're all cowards.
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