Is it OK to have sex with kids?

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Fidel
Posts: 51
Joined: February 4th, 2011, 2:28 pm

Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Fidel »

Deron,

I think you hit on some of the issues that can be brought up around the 'sex with minors' issue. I think we can agree that an 18 year old man should not be castrated for having sex with a 17 year old woman. There is room for reasoned discussion about ages of consent and just punishments for infringements of the law.

I don't think many 18 year old men are driven to want to produce babies though, they are just driven to want sex (and the risk of babies is one some might be willing to take). The sexual urge causes babies but that is a different matter.

Reasonable people believe the abortion of 'potential kids' is (at least in some circumstances) morally permissible, only profoundly disturbed people think it is morally permissible to interefere sexually with prepubecent girls or young boys (where causing babies is neither a possible outcome or intent). I must express some sympathy for Xris' view that castration is not an obviously wrong way to deal with kiddie-fiddling male peadophiles (having sex with a 17 year does not make you a peadophile only possibly, depending on the jurisdiction, a law-breaker.

The age of consent in the UK is 16, personally I think a 50 year old man is acting immorally if he takes up the legal option of having sex with a 16 year old girl. I wouldn't cut his balls of though. I might think it preferable to allow only for other young persons, up to a certain age, to have sex with 16 year olds though.
deronmoped
Posts: 45
Joined: October 11th, 2011, 2:52 am

Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by deronmoped »

Fidel wrote:Deron,

I think you hit on some of the issues that can be brought up around the 'sex with minors' issue. I think we can agree that an 18 year old man should not be castrated for having sex with a 17 year old woman. There is room for reasoned discussion about ages of consent and just punishments for infringements of the law.

I don't think many 18 year old men are driven to want to produce babies though, they are just driven to want sex (and the risk of babies is one some might be willing to take). The sexual urge causes babies but that is a different matter.

Reasonable people believe the abortion of 'potential kids' is (at least in some circumstances) morally permissible, only profoundly disturbed people think it is morally permissible to interefere sexually with prepubecent girls or young boys (where causing babies is neither a possible outcome or intent). I must express some sympathy for Xris' view that castration is not an obviously wrong way to deal with kiddie-fiddling male peadophiles (having sex with a 17 year does not make you a peadophile only possibly, depending on the jurisdiction, a law-breaker.

The age of consent in the UK is 16, personally I think a 50 year old man is acting immorally if he takes up the legal option of having sex with a 16 year old girl. I wouldn't cut his balls of though. I might think it preferable to allow only for other young persons, up to a certain age, to have sex with 16 year olds though.
Well,

I think we are starting to get down to the nut of it. LOL
It's a thought crime.

What were the intentions of the 21 year old having sex with a 17 year old in California, was it to just get off or were they forming a relationship that could lead to marriage. What is the acceptable spread in age differences. Is it OK for a 60 year old to have sex with a 16 year old in Canada if they were in love and were going to start a family and were married. If someone leaves the US is it acceptable for them to leave their US morals behind and accept the countries morals where they relocate to, just so they can have sex with younger people. A person lives in San Diego, yet can travel to Mexico and all of a sudden the age of consent is lowered by 6 years. If it's the woman that is older, all of a sudden it's more acceptable, because a young boy is just a young man and men are that way.

The Femicide of a hundred million women in Asian countries is acceptable because women are not valued as much as men are there. The genocide of millions of kids is acceptable here because kids are not needed here due to the huge population we already have. Would the age of consent be lowered if the human population was dying off here, and there was a need for more kids to support the adults in their old age. Would they also outlaw abortion, if the population was on the verge of collapse, having a chance that it might not recover.

Just the opposite might happen, over population, raise the age of consent, outlaw having more then one kid...

I'm sorry, do not have anytime to write up any scientific papers or anything on this, but I will proof read it and try to make it fairly easy to read.

Deron.
Fidel
Posts: 51
Joined: February 4th, 2011, 2:28 pm

Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Fidel »

Hi Deron,

The killing or 'letting die' of female babies in places such as China and India is and should be a source of mutual concern. That particular aspect and infanticide generally - which some think may be permissible in a limited number of cases- seems worthy of wider attention, and discussion in another thread
The genocide of millions of kids is acceptable here because kids are not needed here due to the huge population we already have.
If you mean to refer to abortion when you talk of the 'genocide of kids' we are in different camps. Doubtless abortion has been discussed here before but the question of whether there is a significant moral difference between late abortions and infanticide (it is unclear to me that there is) seems worthy or thread of its own too. (I don't know that many actually attempt to justify abortion on account of overpopulation but I can see it might be so justified - better, some think, to terminate pregnancies than to bring children into horrendous suffering - though better still to prevent the pregnancies it seems to me).
What were the intentions of the 21 year old having sex with a 17 year old in California, was it to just get off or were they forming a relationship that could lead to marriage.
Personally I don't see that it matters, all that seems relevant is whether there was informed consent without coercion but I gather you adopt a different view towards sex and its proper purpose. If a 60 year wants to marry a 16 year old (as can happen in Scotland without parental consent) I think something is very wrong. If he gas sex with her I don't think action is made any less wrong because he intends to marry her.
If it's the woman that is older, all of a sudden it's more acceptable, because a young boy is just a young man and men are that way.
In the UK the age of consent, as far as heterosexual sex was concerned, only used to apply to girls until fairly recently. I doubt we could have different ages for the diferent sexes. But I think the reality is that a 14-15 year old boy is not usually harmed when he consents to having sex with a women in her twenties (and if he is harmed it is not because she is in her twenties) in anything like the way as tends to happen when its the man who is older. This may come into our thinking when we talk morality, though I don't suppose it can affect the law in letter, I think such cases may need to be looked at more carefully.
Xris
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Xris »

Reasonable men know what a child is and what a young women may be. There are no degrees of paedophilia , to suggest two young lovers are equal to an adult committing a heinous act with a child is not worthy of consideration. I am capable of cruel vengeance, it is has no ethical reasoning. I am honest, I may suffer for it and be part of the victim trail. Even though I would be compelled to act in such a violent manner and pay the price, I believe It is necessary. We will not stop this evil by understanding or attempting to change the mind of such damaged individuals. I can think of no other crime that deserves such vengeance. It is not justice, it is vengeance just like the state acts to defend the wealthy through vengeance and not justice, so to should we act to defend our children. Old, nasty, dirty men have used their power and influence to make women out of children in societies we are only allowed to condemn but it does not make it right. Medieval morals can never be acceptable in a civilised society.
Fidel
Posts: 51
Joined: February 4th, 2011, 2:28 pm

Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Fidel »

Xris: What is necessary is "cruel vengeance" with "no ethical reasoning" a form of behaviour that "is not justice."

Indeed so: "Medieval morals can never be acceptable in a civilised society."
deronmoped
Posts: 45
Joined: October 11th, 2011, 2:52 am

Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by deronmoped »

Fidel

The abortion issue, I know, needs it's own whole forum! Kinda got side tracked, sorry.

What I'm trying to get at with this whole sex thing is, it's so wide open to interpretation.
Each society on this planet has their own rules about how young is too young, what is a acceptable age difference, when a kid is an adult... It's not set in stone either, it changes with what that society is going through at that time. It also depends on the mindset of the people engaging in it. If it's OK in their minds, or the people that know about it, it will never see the light of day, to be judged by society at large.

Now that is talking about sex for pleasure. See how screwed up things get when sex is used for pleasure. All kinds of wild things start to happen, pretty much anything the mind can think up. Now if sex was limited to producing families, then all this weirdness would tend to not happen. The farther sex gets away from what Mother Nature intended it to be (having families) the more screwed up society becomes. I can foresee a point in time when sex will, pretty much only be for pleasure and the only babies that will be had will be test tube babies raised by the government to replace dead citizens. Sorry, starting to wander again.

Deron.
Belinda
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Belinda »

Deronmoped,
It's not OK to abort. Abortion may be the least bad of two evils.

People want to castrate a man because he is driven by Mother Nature to want to produce babies. A 18 year old man would lose his family jewels for having sex with a 17 year old girl.
(Deronmoped)
Some illegal sex is not as bad as other illegal sex.

You are missing that nature or as you sometimes call it 'Mother Nature' includes human reason. Human reason works out ways in which humans can live together in societies. Indeed all social animals punish sexual transgressors. The main man in a human society is not currently a marauder type but is an altruistic type in which case he will see to it that the weak are protected. The only times in human societies in which the weak, children etc, are cruelly treated is when some invader is intent on wiping out or diminishing its victim group.
But we are not at this time discussing rape and pillage by invaders, we are discussing paedophilia which ia a crime within settled societies where people have human rights.
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deronmoped
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by deronmoped »

Belinda wrote:Deronmoped,
It's not OK to abort. Abortion may be the least bad of two evils.

People want to castrate a man because he is driven by Mother Nature to want to produce babies. A 18 year old man would lose his family jewels for having sex with a 17 year old girl.
(Deronmoped)
Some illegal sex is not as bad as other illegal sex.

You are missing that nature or as you sometimes call it 'Mother Nature' includes human reason. Human reason works out ways in which humans can live together in societies. Indeed all social animals punish sexual transgressors. The main man in a human society is not currently a marauder type but is an altruistic type in which case he will see to it that the weak are protected. The only times in human societies in which the weak, children etc, are cruelly treated is when some invader is intent on wiping out or diminishing its victim group.
But we are not at this time discussing rape and pillage by invaders, we are discussing paedophilia which ia a crime within settled societies where people have human rights.
I'm not so sure we are discussing pedophilia, because we need to define what a kid is and also define who is having sex with them. I know society wants to define things by ages, but that is not always the best way to do something. There are plenty of people out there that have the mentality of a kid at a much older age. I know everyone on the forum wants to jump right into the rut in the trail, but supposeably we are above that here, at least I would like to think we can expand our minds a little out of societies box that we come accustomed to.

Then of course the definition of "sex" has now become, whatever anyone wants to make it out to be, so we have that problem in the question.

So lets break it down.
1) What is a kid?
2) What is sex?
3) Who is having the sex with the kid?
4) What was the intent?

If the meaning of kid is going to be determined by age, then it's OK to take advantage of a "adult" that has the mentality of a 8 year old?

What about sex, is it only going to be limited to penetration, or is it also a "thought" crime, or anything else in between? Is a woman that only breast feeds a kid for the pleasure of it in trouble for getting off for the wrong reason?

Then the question of who is having the sex with the "kid", is it a older "kid", is the older kid automatically at fault if the younger kid is the aggressor?

Then there is the intent of both parties, was it to start a family? Is it OK to start a family when both parties want to, or are you locked into all the pressures from around you?

Deron.
Philosopher8659
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Philosopher8659 »

The human mind, like every other environmental acquisition system of a living organism, has a product to achieve. In the case of the mind it is that behavior that maintains and promotes the life of the body. In other words, to even consider the consequences of our actions as relating to the future.

Now, you use the word "sex" in the street sense, when you really meant no more than social masturbation. As far as I know, a child does not have that authority over their own body. This is what is meant by the age of consent.

Since the human mind matures a great deal slower than the rest of the body, one cannot say that it is possible to engage in social masturbation with children, but only with children's bodies, for they shall not achieve judgmental abilities till well beyond the years of sexual maturity. Thus, one should move on to the conclusion, that we are dividing an individual against themselves, for, they do not yet have the mind to do right or wrong with their own body. Any desire to engage in such activities with such people in that state is a desire to enslave others, their bodies, -- it actually resolves down to a deisre to murder--as one is trying to kill their mind while leaching off their body.

etc. etc. A process that has no real purpose and does a great deal of harm, Things that a sane person does not even consider, or if considering, is very unpleasent.

In the realm of sex, we have an eye on procreation, of some kind, a union of human will. Now if one is brain dead and really has no will, is not looking to do something effective with their life, then we are not talking about men, or mankind, but mankind before he awakens--as he is yet brain dead.


Every question of human expression can be answered like every other question. We learn in grade school that definition determines class membership, thus definition determines the principles of predication, what can be or cannot be truly asserted of or denied of anything. The human mind is responsible for human action, however, being that it is minimally functioning at present, it is not aware of how to consider, or answer, very simple questions.
Typist
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Joined: October 19th, 2011, 9:17 am

Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Typist »

Entertainment' has the wrong, light-hearted connotations.
I used the word "entertainment" because this thread, all threads on all philosophy forums, are an optional activity of no great importance. We are not a law making body or a court, our analysis serves no real purpose other than our own entertainment.

I'm not against intellectual entertainment, I love it. I'm just making the case that intellectual entertainment doesn't have to be our highest priority in every single instance.
It is necessary for democratic citizens to be as able as possible to understand the causes of the ills of our society,because unless we understand the causes of crime we cannot stop crime.
One of the causes of crime I'm hoping to address here are muddled messages from the group consensus, which leave the door wide open to creative rationalizations among those considering or participating in child abuse. This thread is itself evidence that this muddled message is leaving some people quite confused.

I'm not saying the original poster is a child molester, as I have no way of knowing that. I'm saying they are confused, and we are confused too if we can't deliver a decisively clear answer that matches the clarity of the question.
If, as I think Typist may imply, a discussion about adult sex with a child can have a titillating effect any persons so titillated are all the more in need of examining reasons why adult sex with a child is wrong.
Adult sex with children is wrong because if we catch someone doing it, we'll toss them in jail where they will be the ones getting raped by bigger stronger men.

This is the level at which this has to be explained, the "fear of god" level. (not a religious reference)

When dealing with evil urges of this nature, the appropriate response is unanimous utter clarity backed up by force of arms, not cleverly refined intellectual debating points, which will not be heard by the psychological/biological mechanism at play here.

People do not become child molesters via an analytical intellectual process and thus, they will not be prevented from such actions by an analytical intellectual process either.

However, because we are somewhat rational, we can use an analytical intellectual process to see that we ourselves are using rationalizations to inflate our desire for intellectual entertainment in to something grand, so we can keep doing it, whatever the potential cost to others.
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Gareth
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Gareth »

Typist said

"Adult sex with children is wrong because if we catch someone doing it, we'll toss them in jail... "

No it's not... it is wrong for many many reasons but if it was wrong only because of the punishment then a peadophile who could ensure that he was free from the risk of punishment would be doing nothing wrong.
Imagine the catholic priest who rationalised his abuse by the fact that he knew he wouldn't be punished because his church would cover it up for him "I will not be punished" thinks he "therefore I do nothing wrong"

We punish because it is immoral NOT it is immoral because we punish.
The difference between Truth and Falsity is not a question of volume.
Belinda
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Belinda »

Typist wrote:
People do not become child molesters via an analytical intellectual process and thus, they will not be prevented from such actions by an analytical intellectual process either.
True. However intellectually reheasing the reasons for not doing wrong is an important means to prevent wrongdoing. Similarly rehearsing feelings of repugnance about raping or otherwise coercing or bullying children or other vulnerable people is a means to keep us behaving rightly.

Raping,killing and bullying of children by adults or older children is a result of stunted learning during the perpetrators' own childhoods when care for weaker beings should have been learned. Sometimes cruelty to others results from brutalising techniques taught to e.g. soldiers who in some terrible cases are themselves children.

The fact that we are 'entertaining' ourselves by discussing such important matters should serve to remind us that much art and philosophy has moral purpose and effect,including our small efforts to identify basic truths. The trouble with all cyber activity such as this is that the activity itself can become a substitute for living and doing, or not doing as the case may be.

Typist reasonably points out that we are not changing any evils by looking at the front of our monitors and typing on our feeble keyboards(my paraphrase). I maintain that we can be changing ourselves for the better by so doing.We guard agaisnt changing nourselves for the worse, here, by our principles of reason and knowledge. If a difficult and important question such as this is raised we should therefore engage with the question, despite the limitations of the medium which after all may be the only communications medium some of us have.

Typist wrote:
This thread is itself evidence that this muddled message is leaving some people quite confused.
This is evident to me too. However the confusion may be cleared by being aired and discussed. Even confused, ignorant, dogmatic or immoral statements are the result of someone's attempt to reason and this jewel of reason can and should be recognised among the dross.

Deronmoped wrote:
So lets break it down.
1) What is a kid?
2) What is sex?
3) Who is having the sex with the kid?
4) What was the intent?
These are all matters of factual decisions which can be decided by recourse to child psychological and anthropological investigations together with local and religious traditions.
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Mhiky
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Mhiky »

Of course not, even in teens there are some research that says it is harmful for the children to have sexual intercourse. The genital parts are not yet fully developed to such action, especially for those youngsters that got pregnant at an early age. There are possibilities that their body can't make it.
deronmoped
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by deronmoped »

Mhiky wrote:Of course not, even in teens there are some research that says it is harmful for the children to have sexual intercourse. The genital parts are not yet fully developed to such action, especially for those youngsters that got pregnant at an early age. There are possibilities that their body can't make it.
When is not harmful to have a baby, just ask any women that went though the whole process how much "fun" it was on her body. :lol:
Banjofrog
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Re: Is it OK to have sex with kids?

Post by Banjofrog »

Read 'The Trauma Myth' by Susan Clancy - most children enjoy doing sex, society makes them feel bad about it afterwards. If something is harmless there is no justification for its prohibition.
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