For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical?

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Bobby8Loyd1
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Bobby8Loyd1 »

I figured someone probably did discuss SCT, but I do have a couple of issues with the initial proposition put forth that mankind is inherently amoral. I think mankind does have the capacity for great evil, but I feel like it's a bit pessimistic to say that that is our natural state of being. I'm also not the biggest supporter of the idea that there absolutely must be a state entity to enforce that contract. This is not to say that I don't believe in the punishment doled out to those who violate that contract, I simply feel like it was initially stated the way it was for the sole purpose of endorsing the king at that time.

Marcus, in your research have you found any other concepts which are similar to SCT that do not involve a state entity for the enforcement of social standards? If so, how do they stack up, in your opinion, against SCT?

And self promotion is the best kind of promotion. Haha.
StillTheLaundry
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by StillTheLaundry »

If one studies the evolving societies of man and animals, it becomes clear that ethical behaviour does not correlate to the religious or theistic practices of a community. A few examples should show this.

Comparing northern Europe with the Middle East, you have an area of mixed atheism - weak theism versus a fundamental monotheism. The monotheist complains about the drinking and women's sluttish [sorry for that term] behaviour, the Westerner will complain about the barbarity of punishments, misogyny, homophobia and cruelty to animals. You also have very different climatic conditions.

More similar, is to compare India with Thailand, one theist, and one atheist. The ethics of these countries is also similar, although I would say that India has a semi-legal form of slavery whereas in Thailand such abuses are carried out clandestinely as slavery is totally illegal. The climate while more diverse in India is generally similar between the two.

Comparing these countries with Vietnam is interesting as Vietnam is largely non-religious. Vietnam in general is more ethical between people, but less ethical to other species. This also seems to vary considerably between North and South, with South Vietnam seeming more like Thailand than like North Vietnam. This again could be climate based.

Finally, studies of ape (chimpanzee I believe) groups, shows, for the same species that some groups are male dominated, and some groups female dominated. The only observed transitions have been from male to female dominated. Female dominated groups have a much more equal standard of behaviour. This would seem to equate with Europe and America which have become more female in the last century, and at least at a personal interaction level fairer and more caring. It is easy to believe that this change is one way, and we will not return without a major upheaval or catastrophe.

It is also easy to worry if one sees any reversal of direction, for example the West's current slide into corporatocracy from the "ideal" world of the nineteen-fifties. It must be remembered though that progress tends to be of the two steps forward, one step back variety. We should still expect this world to become more ethical as naturally as time moves forward.

Based on the above, I suggest that the original question is misleading as it takes us away from the real causes of differences in ethics: local climate and societal progression along an ethical scale.

If you need to find a reason for yourself to be ethical, and assuming you are normally developed, I would say forget religion and just love yourself. This will naturally lead you to be more ethical.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
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Jatw
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Jatw »

I think a strong reason is the survival and success of the human race. While a single person, or even a small group of people, may be unethical without changing the trajectory of humanity, when significantly unethical actions are undertaken en masse, the result could be devastating. As a society - and as a race - in order to succeed, we must be organized. While it's true that part of the success of the human race was due to our superior intelligence and intricate physical abilities, a large part of it was the ability to communicate effectively and organize into groups. While a single ancient person may have been able to craft tools more advanced than those of other species, it was the application of these tools by larger parties that allowed humans to hunt and gather successfully. Without the ability to organize, we could not build simple villages, and we certainly could not build large cities. We would not be able to develop increasingly large or complex technologies - technologies that required multiple minds working in tandem. We would not be able to share knowledge effectively, and allow for people to easily add to human knowledge.

Yet, if all the actions that are currently considered unethical suddenly became ethical, accepted by society at large, we'd descend into chaos. If raping and murdering became commonplace, if robbery became the primary means of trade, if death was an acceptable punishment for disagreement - well, we'd surely descend into anarchy. Through civilization we organize, yet we cannot have civilization without individuals agreeing to be civil. Without civilization, humanity cannot succeed, and will ultimately die out (or evolve significantly) as a whole - and we'd certainly be degraded to the levels of other wild species.

Presumably, you do not want humans to be wild. You want to enjoy the luxuries of modern, civilized life. As an atheist, you must accept that you likely only have one chance at life - you only have one chance at bringing yourself pleasure and you only have once chance at affecting change for both humanity and the world at large. You should also recognize the basic theory of evolution and natural selection. You should do your part, as part of the human species, to make the species more successful. While passing on genetic code may have been key to natural selection and the success of the human race previously, it is now equally important to pass on new technologies and new knowledge in the interest of enhancing the human race for generations to come.

The bottom line is that humans cannot succeed without civilization and organization. Such pursuits are impossible without individuals being willing to cooperate. Cooperation is damaged by (unethically) doing harm to one another in immediately gratifying self interest. Ultimately, one must realize that being ethical simply means doing what's in the best interest of the human race (cooperation with others and respect for others) - and it will ultimately result in your own best interest (as you'll be able to reap the benefits of the cooperation of all of society).
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Deeper13
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Deeper13 »

In my eyes it all comes down to opinion. No matter how many facts are put out to prove a point there will always be someone who disagrees. So the real question is "What do you believe is right and what do you believe is wrong?" But that's only my opinion.
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TheCalvinistPastor
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by TheCalvinistPastor »

I think this will be a good article for ya. I have read through this 5 times, it was written by the late Dr. Greg Bhansen on the problem with Evil. This dips right into the ethical dilemma you presented.

http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa105.htm
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wanabe
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by wanabe »

Logic dictates that if all people stole that no one would ever have any thing. Also if everyone killed indiscriminately one wouldn't be alive to act...

It's popular to view ethics from a religious standpoint, but the argument for ethics is logical, not religious in origin. In antiquity it was primarily the spiritual leaders and institutions which had the education(governments were much smaller), which facilitated logical or at least reasoned thought.
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
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Dumbo
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Dumbo »

How about this: Sooner or later you'll be caught doing something unethical and get your booty kicked. The odds of being caught in any single incident may be low, but a lifestyle of this, and the consequent personality style that allows this, is one that will eventually wind you up in trouble.

If you really need to have the threat of punishment in order to stay ethical, that's probably as good a reason as "the devil's going to get you." They both involve passing up short-term gains for long-term safety.

And then there are other reasons that may be better, like, "I just don't want to be THE KIND OF PERSON that does X."
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Naughtorious
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Naughtorious »

Dumbo wrote:
If you really need to have the threat of punishment in order to stay ethical
I am moralistically good. I would have gotten away with many things I could have done wrong. I did not do wrong because danger and fear are only factors that play influential roles in our decisions. Decisions alone are planned actions. Planned actions are turned into actions when the act takes in effect. My decisions to not do what is ethically wrong was based entirely off of what wasn't short from choosing vanilla icecream over chocolate icecream.

Hypothetically there was plenty of vanilla icecream and just enough chocolate ice cream for one person. The person behind me has been waiting in line for the chocolate icecream because they are allergic to vanilla icecream. I wanted the chocolate icecream but I chose the vanilla instead even if I didn't like it as much. It was less consequential for others and there wasn't any consequences for myself other than a small downfall in pleasure from making a choice that wasn't for myself.
Those who don't want to die are valueless lies; and those who don't mind death are valuable assets.
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Fiveredapples
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Fiveredapples »

I am an atheist and I can think of no irrefutable reason to be ethical.
If you're going to set the bar as high as 'irrefutable', then why bother thinking at all? Stop all this ethical posturing and go on a murder spree, because I guarantee you there is no irrefutable ethical reason not to.
This is, of course, a bit distressing.
It's not distressing; it's silly. You are distressed because you are confused. Your confusion is distressing.
What are your thoughts about ethics and atheism?
When it comes to ethics, atheists are no exceptions in any way.
Is there any proof that suggests humans should act ethically?
Yeah, the disfavor of your community. Go chop off your mom's head and see how your father feels about it. Then see what society does to you. At some point, you might even consult yourself: see what you feel about such an act.
And can you recommend any books written by atheists on ethics?
You're not ready to tackle reading. Let's start with thinking.
"Some people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so" -- Bertrand Russell
Belinda
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Belinda »

FiveRedApples wrote:
I am an atheist and I can think of no irrefutable reason to be ethical.

If you're going to set the bar as high as 'irrefutable', then why bother thinking at all? Stop all this ethical posturing and go on a murder spree, because I guarantee you there is no irrefutable ethical reason not to.
There is no reason to observe any moral law, custom or taboo that cannot be refuted by someone, somewhere, at some time in human history.StillTheLaundry makes the case for ethical relativity .

However I argue that there is one ethic which overarches all relative ethics and that criterion is the life or survival of the species. The life or survival of the species may be interpreted variously as the life or survival of any human group from the nuclear family to the nation or cultural group. It is now known that the biosphere is essential to any human life or survival, therefore the survival of the biosphere is an essential component of the life or survival of the species.

The implication of this argument is that there is one broad culture and its broad ethical set which is the best. This winning culture together with its values is defined by universality, as opposed to tribalism in any of tribalism's variants.

The symptoms of tribalism are racism, sexism, ageism, dogmatism, speciesism, unshaken inequality, and fear of foreigners.
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