For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical?

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Leonid
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Leonid »

James195101 wrote:In Darwinian terms, there is no sure reason to do anything. In fact trying out variations is almost our Darwinian duty. Ethics are often culturally based and so ethics are experiments to see whose culture is the most 'fit'.

-- Updated June 2nd, 2012, 10:29 pm to add the following --

The only sure reason I can think of is that if you go too far away from what you consider to be right, you may go mad.
What you consider to be right and why?
MarcusPCato
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by MarcusPCato »

There is an "if...then" form of morality to which I alluded in an earlier post. IF I want to attain the Stoic goal of apatheia, THEN I need to act in a certain way--as a realistic approach--to attain that goal. For example, IF I wish to learn, and not just intellectually, that external things, called by Epictetus "things indifferent," are unimportant to me, then it is conducive not to try to live a hedonistic life-style. Such a life-style is likely to strengthen the attachment to those externals, and that would be counterproductive to my goals, would it not?
Leonid
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Leonid »

"If...then" morality called hypothetical imperative. Contrary to the categorical imperative( do "X", don't do "Y"), such an imperative presupposes that result of action "X" is an achievement of certain goal or value. Value presupposes an existence of certain standard of value. Only living being is facing the constant alternative between life and death and acts in order to obtain values to sustain its life. Therefore the only objective standard of value which pertains to reality is life itself. Animals act to achieve their values by using built-in mechanisms which guide their proper actions. Man , however, has no such hard wiring. Instead, he has volition and mind, all his actions are chosen. To make a proper choice he needs a code of values based on an objective standard. This is man's morality. If he want to live qua man he has to achieve certain values. Man's basic tool of survival is mind. Therefore the primary value is rationality.
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James195101
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by James195101 »

Leonid wrote:
James195101 wrote:In Darwinian terms, there is no sure reason to do anything. In fact trying out variations is almost our Darwinian duty. Ethics are often culturally based and so ethics are experiments to see whose culture is the most 'fit'.

-- Updated June 2nd, 2012, 10:29 pm to add the following --

The only sure reason I can think of is that if you go too far away from what you consider to be right, you may go mad.
What you consider to be right and why?
Determining what is right takes soul-searching, because each situation is different for each participant. Consider the situation of a lion killing a baby antelope. This is good and right and necessary for the lion, but the very same act is a disaster for the mother antelope (and the baby antelope). We have within us driving forces (mainly sub-conscious) which we ignore at our peril. It is these internal driving forces which we personally need to consult in order to determine what is right for us. This is where god comes in. The scenario is analogous to the scenario where indigenous australians used to teach their children creation stories. A story would typically have some dream-time people in a particular situation who would turn into a particular animal. If you go along with the story, you are better able to predict the behaviour of that animal - very useful when hunting it. Likewise you get benefits when you go along with the story of god.
Last edited by James195101 on June 3rd, 2012, 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Leonid
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Leonid »

"Determining what is right takes soul-searching, because each situation is different for each participant. Consider the situation of a lion killing a baby antelope. This is good and right and necessary for the lion, but the very same act is a disaster for the mother antelope (and the baby antelope)."

This is very intuitivistic approach to morality. In fact you claim that moral is whatever that you feel as moral. But different people feel differently and so the suicide bomber could as moral as you are. A denial of the objective nature of morality is an abnegation of morality altogether.Morality is a code of values which allows to make proper choices in order to sustain and to better life. Morality therefore presupposes volition and mind. Animals don't make volitional choices and concept of morality is inapplicable to them.
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James195101
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by James195101 »

The clear-headed suicide bomber IS probably more moral than I. Cannibalism used to be common on sandy space-challenged Pacific islands where only humans and coconuts could thrive (not cattle and sheep). So it was only reasonable that they should eat the meat available - to sustain a better life. Were they wrong? It is moral for the lion to kill the antelope because that is what the lion was designed to do. It is moral for the antelope to avoid the lion as that is what it is designed to do (in addition to eating grass). What is a human designed to do? It is designed to kill food animals, to find fruit/vegetables, to mate, to rear children, to act in groups, to fight off other human groups.
Leonid
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Leonid »

"The clear-headed suicide bomber IS probably more moral than I"-this is exactly the proof that intuitivism in fact is an abnegation of morality. Cannibalism is an abnegation of the basic right to live. Since life is the only objective standard of value, such a practice would be deeply immoral, as well as that of suicide bomber. The right to infringe rights of others is a contradiction in terms. Cannibals could eat seafood, fish, start agriculture or move to another island. To kill people for food is morally wrong according to the objective standard of value.
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James195101
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by James195101 »

I see that you are comfy rearing killing and eating innocent lambs, but yet are squeamish about killing god's ultimate creation - wait for it - you (and probably reluctantly me). However killing humans is tricky in that it is not always needed or appropriate. It is usually only needed on a group scale when there is not enough to go around (either by population growth or by resource shrinkage). I don't like it either but I didn't set the rules. Whatever created us (and the other more lowly animals) set this up.
Leonid
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Leonid »

James195101 wrote:I see that you are comfy rearing killing and eating innocent lambs, but yet are squeamish about killing god's ultimate creation - wait for it - you (and probably reluctantly me). However killing humans is tricky in that it is not always needed or appropriate. It is usually only needed on a group scale when there is not enough to go around (either by population growth or by resource shrinkage). I don't like it either but I didn't set the rules. Whatever created us (and the other more lowly animals) set this up.
I'm not comfy with the fallacy of equivocation of man and beast. And this is nothing to do with God but everything with human versus animal nature. Humans are volitional, rational beings whose nature requires them to act on the conscious choice in order to sustain their life. Mind is their tool of survival, not teeth, wings or instincts. The operation of mind requires freedom from coercion. The concept of right to live designates freedom of action in the social context. Animals don't act on conscious choice, their modus operandi is mostly build-in mechanism and therefore concept of rights is inapplicable to them. Killing humans in any circumstances would mean an elimination of right to live for both killers and their victims. In such a situation no man could exist and act qua man, that is- a rational being. From the other hand man cannot exist as an animal, as an animal cannot exist by means of plant. The abnegation man's life as an objective standard of value means therefore an abnegation of man. That why cannibalism, human sacrifice are not sustainable for the long run and murder was considered to be a crime already in the times of Hammurabi.
MarcusPCato
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by MarcusPCato »

Leonid said: To make a proper choice he needs a code of values based on an objective standard. This is man's morality. If he want to live qua man he has to achieve certain values.

Why do they need to be based on an "objective standard?" If a set of values appears to work, that is sufficient.

Now, one can argue, of course, that Mohammad Atta's values were as real to him as Hellenistic ones are to me, and so what? I don't deny that there are conflicting values, and the struggle is to see which ones prevail.
Leonid
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Leonid »

[quote="MarcusPCato"]Leonid said: To make a proper choice he needs a code of values based on an objective standard. This is man's morality. If he want to live qua man he has to achieve certain values.

Why do they need to be based on an "objective standard?" If a set of values appears to work, that is sufficient.

We need an objective standard for 2 reasons. First-objective means pertains to reality and one cannot escape reality of human nature with impunity as he cannot escape the law of gravitation. Second, subjective or arbitrary standard of value eliminates morality altogether. Morality is a code of values that guides human choices. With the subjective or arbitrary standard no choices are needed or possible. For example if God is a standard of value, then everything goes as long as this alleged deity approves. The same applies to all other arbitrary standards-feelings, society, state, race, etc...By accepting arbitrary standards man becomes not immoral but amoral. However, the choice of arbitrary standard is an immoral evasion-man implicitly knows that his life is his standard of value. He learns from his own experience that whatever promotes his life is good, whatever hinders it is bad. No man could completely deny such a knowledge-the same Mohammad Ata would know very well how to fight for his very life in the court room.
MarcusPCato
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by MarcusPCato »

Aren't you, in effect, asserting the consequent?
Leonid
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by Leonid »

MarcusPCato wrote:Aren't you, in effect, asserting the consequent?
No. Consequentialism is a moral theory in which the standard of value defined as a result of the certain action. This is circular argument which doesn't define bad and good. Suppose the result of action " A" is "R". How do you know whether or not " R" is good or bad, moral or immoral? Without objective standard there is no way to know .
MarcusPCato
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by MarcusPCato »

Actually, my argument does define bad and good, bad being those behaviors which lead one away from the Stoic goal of apatheia, and good being those behaviors that reinforce it.
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James195101
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Re: For an atheist, are there any sure reasons to be ethical

Post by James195101 »

Leonid wrote: Humans are volitional, rational beings whose nature requires them to act on the conscious choice in order to sustain their life. Mind is their tool of survival, not teeth, wings or instincts. The operation of mind requires freedom from coercion. The concept of right to live designates freedom of action in the social context. Animals don't act on conscious choice, their modus operandi is mostly build-in mechanism and therefore concept of rights is inapplicable to them. Killing humans in any circumstances would mean an elimination of right to live for both killers and their victims. In such a situation no man could exist and act qua man, that is- a rational being. From the other hand man cannot exist as an animal, as an animal cannot exist by means of plant. The abnegation man's life as an objective standard of value means therefore an abnegation of man. That why cannibalism, human sacrifice are not sustainable for the long run and murder was considered to be a crime already in the times of Hammurabi.
Consider how many many things we have in common with wolves, such as: choosing prey for food, killing prey for food, clubbing together to hunt, having a leader and following a leader, choosing a leader, mating, having young, protecting rearing and feeding young, competing with other tribes/packs for food, killing our own kind when deemed necessary. Sure we are a special animal, but we need to face truth in order to use our minds usefully.
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