Is abortion wrong?

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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Burning ghost wrote:Okay, be evasive. Not interested.

Evasive? I must not have understood the question. What is it so I can answer it directly.

-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 2:15 pm to add the following --
Youngeqp wrote:
Burning ghost wrote:Okay, be evasive. Not interested.

Evasive? I must not have understood the question. What is it so I can answer it directly.
Let me ask you a question. If you place a newborn in a dark room hooked to a machine to preserve its life, let it hear no sounds, smell no smell , see no sights, feel no pain. What will that child know as it grows, how would it ever be able to feel emotionally.

Can you think objectively or are you always vested in your own ideas. If so, philosophy isn't the place for you.
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Misty
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Misty »

[quote="Youngeqp can answer it directly.[/quote]
Let me ask you a question. If you place a newborn in a dark room hooked to a machine to preserve its life, let it hear no sounds, smell no smell , see no sights, feel no pain. What will that child know as it grows, how would it ever be able to feel emotionally.[/quote]


I think the child would still have internal emotion caused by it's own feeling of not getting what an infant needs. I think it would still cry and need to be held. Emotion is a two way street, need and fulfillment of that need.
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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Misty wrote:[quote="Youngeqp can answer it directly.
Let me ask you a question. If you place a newborn in a dark room hooked to a machine to preserve its life, let it hear no sounds, smell no smell , see no sights, feel no pain. What will that child know as it grows, how would it ever be able to feel emotionally.[/quote]


I think the child would still have internal emotion caused by it's own feeling of not getting what an infant needs. I think it would still cry and need to be held. Emotion is a two way street, need and fulfillment of that need.[/quote]

I am absolutely sure that the child would still cry, but then again in this example is hooked to a machine that sustains it. A child comes out of the womb crying. It's more than likely just an instinctual response to birth, having nothing to do with emotion. Then again, maybe the child cries because it had felt is first emotion; fear.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Burning ghost »

Seems you've already contradicted yourself. Babies feel fear yet you question whether or not they have emotions?

Does it recognise human faces even though it has never seen one? Does it know its mothers voice? Does it prefer to look at some objects more than others? The answers to these questions are yes.

If all you are saying is without sensory input nothing can be learnt I agree. I would also say without sensory input we're as good as dead, at best merely living a solipsical existence fashion from the inner machinations of our bodily functions (although we'd need "sense" to comprehend such so not strcitly in keeping with what I've just said).

To answer your question the child would know its environment as best it can come to know it. It would not possess a language so its thoughts would be completely unverbal. It would still interact with the environment though. Given that we are social creatures its brain would remain starved of certain capacities involved with human interaction and after a certain stage of development without stimulation this capacity ro learn in this area would behin to grow more and more muted. Instances of feral children show this. Also the much older and more mature deaf Mexican who lived for the larger part of his life without language was able to still learn language, which suggests that language fulfills social relations (the guy had a job, crossed i to the US etc., he was simply mute and had no idea what language was). Feral children cannot learn language well probably because they lack a common social foundation. The life and social circle of the wolf is alien to that of human interactions, so children raised by wolves simply struggle to understand amd adapt to a human community having grown up as part of a wolf "community". Their brains have put all theit develpment into being a creature living with wolves.
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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

[quote="Burning ghost"]Seems you've already contradicted yourself. Babies feel fear yet you question whether or not they have emotions?

Does it recognise human faces even though it has never seen one? Does it know its mothers voice? Does it prefer to look at some objects more than others? The answers to these questions are yes.

If all you are saying is without sensory input nothing can be learnt I agree. I would also say without sensory input we're as good as dead, at best merely living a solipsical existence fashion from the inner machinations of our bodily functions (although we'd need "sense" to comprehend such so not strcitly in keeping with what I've just said).

I've never said with any certainty that a child feels fear at birth, I was merely speculating, which is why I used the term "maybe". So I'm not really being contradictory. But it is with a good mind that a person be open to knowledge and correction, else they should forever remain ignorant.

Fear is more like an instinctual emotion. Fear isn't learned, we only learn "what" to be afraid of. So I'll give you that. I'm speaking of more complex emotions.

And yes, that is all I am saying. That something needs input in order to learn. The child that we speak of will know it's mothers voice, unless she was mute herself. But without ever seeing one, it will never know a human face, it will never have an object to look at. Unless you turned on the lights.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sy Borg »

Which of the below stages would people here classify as a life valued the same as any adult human? For me, none.

https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embr ... e_1-23.jpg

And certainly not a blastocyst:

Image
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Babies are born with facial recognition. You can take a newborn baby and pull faces at it. It will mimic what you do. This has been shown in scientific studies.

If a new born has the choice to look at two items it will choose which one to look at and grow bored of certain objects over time ("habituation").

I am not just making assumptions. I have actually read about this subject it is not my opinion just what the studies show.

Our genetics define our boundaries. These boundaries are vast. Some of us are more predisposed towards some things more than others, or if you wish more susceptible. If you are born blind and have surgery later in life to restore your site it is simply too late. The visual centres of your neurological make-up would have been redirected and used in combination with other sensory functioning and you wont be abke to discern different faces. As with a newborn exposure to input refines the "in-built" neurological system. We are most certainly not born into the world without any knowledge of what the world is. We are genetically predisposed to interact with the "environment" (which in very broad terms directly involves ourselves too) and if we find ourselves being brought up by wolves we'll act like wolves and live in and know of wolf "society" not human society.

It is very difficult to discern when "personality" begins to develop. If the brain is far enough along in development then emotion is functioning and personality is there. Many mothers comment on how you can see certain personality very early. Just because a baby cannot speak does not mean it cannot think or feel emotions.

I see nothing wrong with abortion myself. I can understand to a degree why some people do. I would especially empathise with vegans and people who respect all live forms in general and are repulsed by the idea of using animals are consumable products. In such an area of opposition there is something to be said about comparing fetal development between species as in early stages there is almost no visual distinction between mammals. I am less sympathetic towards institutionalised religious views, that is not to say jusy because you're religious you no right to question abortion just that to bring religiously institutional attitudes to the table is a little pointless for discerning objective data for human rights and what the "human" means in a legal sense regarding law and abortion. I don't regard a week old fetus as "human", many pregnancies miscarry within the first three months for numerous reasons. Three months for me seems like the best position to start from to find a period beyond which abortion is deemed illegal.

As you can probably tell I am more interested in neurogenesis than I am in what the "law" says. It hurts no one to look at these interesting areas. I think it is very hard for a man to appreciate what it means to have someone else tell you what to do with your own body.

-- Updated November 22nd, 2016, 1:47 am to add the following --

Greta -

Very few to none?

Further along the developmental stages is where the problem seems to arise for most people (including myself). The obvious ethical problem arises when you consider things like being allowed to abort today but not tomorrow. Unlikely examples like that are what make many question how we discern what is "human" and what is not "human". Someone mentioned humans almost in two distinct classes, "adult" and "child".
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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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[quote="Burning ghost"]Babies are born with facial recognition. You can take a newborn baby and pull faces at it. It will mimic what you do. This has been shown in scientific studies.

If a new born has the choice to look at two items it will choose which one to look at and grow bored of certain objects over time ("habituation").

I am not just making assumptions. I have actually read about this subject it is not my opinion.

It is important to remember that we are talking about a child in a dark room that has no faces to mimic, no objects to see. In order for a animal to be able to think, you have to give it something to think about, take away sensory input and it had nothing to think about.

Other than that I agree with you on most other things you've said. But I'm still impartial to the emotional part outside of instinctual emotions that is.

What we feel, and call emotions are nothing but chemical reactions in the body, which are only activated by a perception. Without sensory input it would be difficult to have any perceptions at all, and therefore any emotions at all
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Take away sensory input and you take away the brain. Of course without any sense there is no sense.

Emotion is probably best scientifically viewed as a bodily feeling such as with fear where we feel tense and our heartbeat rises.

If I stab someone in the arm and tell them I am going to kill them I don't also say "Stop whimpering! It is just chemicals in your head you don't actually "feel" anything!".

We can say the s@me for someone who sees ghosts attacking them, or has some kind of psychotic episode. We can tell them all we like itbis not real, but that doesn't make it less real to them.

It is interesting to think about empathy and how we attend to the world with this quality. We have the natural ability to imagine ourselved with "overthereness" or "as suchness". This ties in to our social inclinations. In a world of inanimate objects it intrigues me to contemplate such things (with my capacity to model the world jabotu myself). This is the key point, we model the world from a pregiven structure that we are. We do not emptily absorb the world about us we integrate.

I am trying to highlight the "habituation" of scientific culture here which has historically since Decartes "suffered" (or rather been under the gaze of) dualistic notions of the universe and ideas of "inner" and "outer" perpetuated with great success in science by adherance to objectivity.
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Misty
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Misty »

[quote="Youngeqp]

A child comes out of the womb crying. It's more than likely just an instinctual response to birth, having nothing to do with emotion. Then again, maybe the child cries because it had felt is first emotion; fear.[quote][/quote]

I have given birth to 4 live children and not one of them came out of the womb crying. A nurse or doctor usually smacks the infant on the butt to enhance it to breathe and it starts to cry after it catches its breathe. Emotions are innate to the human and animals, and maybe to all life forms.
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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Misty wrote:[quote="Youngeqp]

A child comes out of the womb crying. It's more than likely just an instinctual response to birth, having nothing to do with emotion. Then again, maybe the child cries because it had felt is first emotion; fear.
I have given birth to 4 live children and not one of them came out of the womb crying. A nurse or doctor usually smacks the infant on the butt to enhance it to breathe and it starts to cry after it catches its breathe. Emotions are innate to the human and animals, and maybe to all life forms.
[/quote]

Agreed. The ability to feel emotions are innate to most forms of life. Because emotions are nothing but chemical reactions in the body. And most of us possess these chemicals. But that doesn't mean that you automatically feel emotions. First you must corn a perception that can activate that chemical reaction

-- Updated November 22nd, 2016, 9:11 am to add the following --
Burning ghost wrote:Take away sensory input and you take away the brain. Of course without any sense there is no sense.

Emotion is probably best scientifically viewed as a bodily feeling such as with fear where we feel tense and our heartbeat rises.

If I stab someone in the arm and tell them I am going to kill them I don't also say "Stop whimpering! It is just chemicals in your head you don't actually "feel" anything!".

We can say the s@me for someone who sees ghosts attacking them, or has some kind of psychotic episode. We can tell them all we like itbis not real, but that doesn't make it less real to them.

It is interesting to think about empathy and how we attend to the world with this quality. We have the natural ability to imagine ourselved with "overthereness" or "as suchness". This ties in to our social inclinations. In a world of inanimate objects it intrigues me to contemplate such things (with my capacity to model the world jabotu myself). This is the key point, we model the world from a pregiven structure that we are. We do not emptily absorb the world about us we integrate.

I am trying to highlight the "habituation" of scientific culture here which has historically since Decartes "suffered" (or rather been under the gaze of) dualistic notions of the universe and ideas of "inner" and "outer" perpetuated with great success in science by adherance to objectivity.
[/quote]

Ok. This sounds more like a philosophical discussion than an argument, which is good, I don't see that much on here. I agree worth your statement on emotions. Though I do wonder what comes first; does the release of emotional causing chemicals activate the physical bodily changes, or does the physical bodily changes activate the emotional chemicals.

And the only truths or reality is that which is true or real to the individual. From the standpoint of the individual of course.

I have trouble feeling empathy naturally. When I want to feel for, I usually meditate and consciously envision myself in their situation, but it takes effort. I relate to the world of ideas, concepts and theories far more than to the world of people and things. I consider myself an observer. And my world is objectivity. I can argue any side.

The only part where I'm not 100% with you is when you say that we model the world from a pregiven structure that we are. And that we do not emptily absorb the world around us as we integrate. I agree 50%.

I believe that no one is born with any conception of personality. No pregiven structure. As a child grows it learns by mimicry, trial And error, and various other methods. In the early stages they are just a sponge soaking up information. Then later once they begin to understand the information that they have accumulated, I believe it is then that they start to turn their gaze inward and realize that they have wants and needs different from others and so noticing that they are different and accepting it they then begin to structure the data that they intake and mix and match it with their perceptible of themselves.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Sorry, badly worded and presented.

What I am saying is we all possess innate empathy (and mirror neurons allow us to mentally perform an action we see to some degree) and people on one end of the autism spectrum lack, for what ever reason, a fully functioning "structure" of empathy. So some are born a certain way.

We do "model" the universe and although we are all very similar we all have differences. By this I mean we have a "core" structure on from this experiences we have move us in certain directions of development. I think like everything else the development of personality (whatever that may be) has certain set limits and these limitations differ from person to person.

Looking at genetics we may have certain traits that shape our personality, but this traits may remain dormant our entire lives if none of our experiences (environment) trigger them.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Platos stepchild »

In order to answer the question, it's necessary to ask whether abortion is a human right, or whether it's a form of social engineering. It's also necessary to ask what are the rights of the unborn child, verses the rights of the mother (as well as of society). My personal belief is, once abortion is used as a form of birth control, an inevitable cheapening of life ensues. Although usually touted as reproductive rights, abortion has become a defacto method of social engineering. I believe that, once we look at children who might'ave been aborted (but weren't), we're tempted to ask why not. The calculus of who is entitled to opportunities and privileges becomes who should'ave been aborted (as opposed to who wasn't). The temptation to invoke abortion for controlling poverty plays into questions of race and class. Such questions become assessments of worth. I argue that this undercuts society's well being.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Platos stepchild wrote:In order to answer the question, it's necessary to ask whether abortion is a human right, or whether it's a form of social engineering. It's also necessary to ask what are the rights of the unborn child, verses the rights of the mother (as well as of society). My personal belief is, once abortion is used as a form of birth control, an inevitable cheapening of life ensues. Although usually touted as reproductive rights, abortion has become a defacto method of social engineering. I believe that, once we look at children who might'ave been aborted (but weren't), we're tempted to ask why not. The calculus of who is entitled to opportunities and privileges becomes who should'ave been aborted (as opposed to who wasn't). The temptation to invoke abortion for controlling poverty plays into questions of race and class. Such questions become assessments of worth. I argue that this undercuts society's well being.
Society? Your post is an example of the reason why the abortion debate should be between a woman and herself, her consort and maybe her doctor. Not with the sociology department, the legislature or any other busy bodies. Your post implies that abortion is forced upon certain groups based on their belonging to that group instead of the reality that women choose abortion based mostly on what sort of parenting they can provide the potential child at the current time.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Nick_A »

I'm learned of the new feminist's mantra: "F_ck and kill." it will probably be appearing shortly on tee shirts. A long as I don't have to pay for their enjoyment as part of public funds it is OK. Kill or be killed. Makes sense. kill the fetus now since in twenty years it may kill you. It will sell well. In fact it probably will be the dominant item of apparel for the next women's march selling just above the slogan "equality for all."
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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