Is abortion wrong?

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Kinyonga
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Kinyonga »

LuckyR wrote:Well, unlike many issues in philosophy, this topic is 50% personal, 25% family and 25% medical and essentially zero percent anyone else's business. So all I need to hear is that you are comfortable with your personal, family and medical reasoning and that is good enough for me.
I guess it depends on whether you think morality is relative or not.
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Jacqueline Sheehan
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Jacqueline Sheehan »

From my point of view, it is wrong as it is still a life that you take away due to the irresponsible act.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Jacqueline Sheehan wrote:From my point of view, it is wrong as it is still a life that you take away due to the irresponsible act.
But should it be illegal?
"As usual... it depends."
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Kinyonga
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Kinyonga »

LuckyR wrote:But should it be illegal?
Yes, unless the pregnancy is endangering the mother's life.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Kinyonga wrote:
LuckyR wrote:But should it be illegal?
Yes, unless the pregnancy is endangering the mother's life.
Ah, well that is where your not unreasonable opinion (for yourself) crosses the line into unreasonable.
"As usual... it depends."
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Kinyonga
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Kinyonga »

LuckyR wrote:Ah, well that is where your not unreasonable opinion (for yourself) crosses the line into unreasonable.
Well, a law was created to make murder illegal, presumably because someone thought it was immoral. And abortion is illegal in many countries...
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Kinyonga wrote:
LuckyR wrote:Ah, well that is where your not unreasonable opinion (for yourself) crosses the line into unreasonable.
Well, a law was created to make murder illegal, presumably because someone thought it was immoral. And abortion is illegal in many countries...
You are correct. Which of the named countries would you like to emigrate to (due to their superior cultural philosophy)?

RED COUNTRIES ON THE MAP: ABORTION ILLEGAL IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES OR PERMITTED ONLY TO SAVE A WOMAN'S LIFE.
South America:
Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Gustamala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nigaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Venezuela,

Sub-Saharan Africa:
Angola, Benin, Central African Rep.Chad, Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Gabon, Guinea- Bissau, Kenya, Lesotho, Madagascar, Mali, Mauretania, Mauritius, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, Tanzania, Togo, Uganda.

Middle East and North Africa:
Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Oman, Sudan (r), Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen.

Asia and Pacific:
Bangladesh, Indonesia, Laos, Myanmar, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Sri Lanka.

Europe:
Ireland, Malta.
"As usual... it depends."
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-1-
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by -1- »

Kinyonga wrote: Well, a law was created to make murder illegal, presumably because someone thought it was immoral. And abortion is illegal in many countries...
I am not sure of that.

I think murder was made illegal to create stability because it is good for good governance of a community.

But murder was not always illegal, and if it were immoral, then it would be forever illegal.

Some examples of murder made legal:

- if you want to stop a Muslim from going to his temple to pray, he is told he can kill you with impunity.

- as a landlord in feudal times, in Europe, you could kill a serf under your rule. In incredibly, horribly painful ways, too, if you felt like it.

- as a slave owner in the South, you could kill slaves with relative impunity.

- as a soldier your DUTY is to murder people.

- in the ancient times slaves could be killed without even a reason for it.

- in many states murder is legal (when executing a prisoner on death row. It is still a murder., any way you look at it.)
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Kinyonga
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Kinyonga »

LuckyR wrote:You are correct. Which of the named countries would you like to emigrate to (due to their superior cultural philosophy)?
Are you telling me you wouldn't want to live in any of those countries?
But as it happens, I am planning on moving and living in Kenya. I've lived there for about two years (hard to tell because it wasn't just a long stretch; came back to Europe often), and it's a wonderful country. However, most of the countries you list I'd be happy to live in. I don't really see what your point is.
-1 wrote:I am not sure of that.

I think murder was made illegal to create stability because it is good for good governance of a community.

But murder was not always illegal, and if it were immoral, then it would be forever illegal.
Do you mean that murder is morally acceptable?
-1 wrote:Some examples of murder made legal:

- if you want to stop a Muslim from going to his temple to pray, he is told he can kill you with impunity.

- as a landlord in feudal times, in Europe, you could kill a serf under your rule. In incredibly, horribly painful ways, too, if you felt like it.

- as a slave owner in the South, you could kill slaves with relative impunity.

- as a soldier your DUTY is to murder people.

- in the ancient times slaves could be killed without even a reason for it.

- in many states murder is legal (when executing a prisoner on death row. It is still a murder., any way you look at it.)
Yes, all true. But, like I implied above, legality doesn't make killing things moral.
For your first point, which countries does that apply to (just out of interest)?
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Ranvier
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Ranvier »

"Is abortion wrong?"
This is an extremely difficult question because the answer entails several different concepts just to answer from ethical versus the legal point of view. Without getting too deep into the differences between human beings, there are certainly differences in how each of us thinks. To answer any ethical question one must search within oneself for answers not turn to others for guidance. I believe that's the fundamental principle of ethics. However, given our intellect we can be intellectually swayed in our convictions to perceive the reality from a different points of view, how else could we explain millions of Germans following the logic of fascism of Nazi Germany.

Again, without getting deep into the concepts of consciousness and conscience, each one of us can trace the first memory of self aware thought to a specific time in life. This will be about 4 years of age for most people. Naturally we would all agree that consciousness is clearly visible in children who speak their first words or show first signs of modesty and even much earlier. However, conscience doesn't mature until much later in child's life, not until the mind is capable of comprehending consequences of effect from causality. Regardless, personally I can trace a specific time in my life when I was able to "know" that something is right or wrong, even if I couldn't explain why. That is in my view the first expression of inborn "moral agent" (around age 4), which legally we don't really acknowledge in our society until 16 years old (in some countries) or 18-21 yo in most Western countries. Of course it's a separate debate about the actual "maturity" of conscience in full understanding of consequences of one's actions from a legal point of view...or the fact that some people never mature.

Therefore, legality of our actions is separate from ethical considerations. One is derived from the social consequences of our actions, while the former is derived from a subjective sense of self respect and honor, if I'm allowed to describe morals in such a way. This question of abortion must be viewed from these two different aspects of civilization and humanity. I could elaborate more but in my humble opinion:

- Legally, abortion should be allowed without punishment in modern secular society.
- Morally, abortion is unethical regardless of society.

-- Updated August 17th, 2017, 11:31 am to add the following --

*replace "former" with later
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Kinyonga wrote:
LuckyR wrote:You are correct. Which of the named countries would you like to emigrate to (due to their superior cultural philosophy)?
Are you telling me you wouldn't want to live in any of those countries?
But as it happens, I am planning on moving and living in Kenya. I've lived there for about two years (hard to tell because it wasn't just a long stretch; came back to Europe often), and it's a wonderful country. However, most of the countries you list I'd be happy to live in. I don't really see what your point is.
"Traditional ideas about the roles of girls and women restrict their contributions to Kenya. These ideas hold women back from contributing to important development goals; especially in the areas of economic growth, nutrition and food security.

Women in Kenya are underrepresented in decision-making positions. They also have less access to education, land, and employment. Those living in rural areas spend long hours collecting water and firewood; interfering with school attendance and leaving them with little time to earn money or engage in other productive activities.

The untapped potential of women and girls is gaining greater attention in Kenya. The country’s new Constitution, passed in 2010, provides a powerful framework for addressing gender equality. It marks a new beginning for women’s rights in Kenya; seeking to remedy the traditional exclusion of women and promote their full involvement in every aspect of growth and development."



My point is: Have a great time in Kenya. Looks like things are looking brighter for the future...
"As usual... it depends."
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-1-
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by -1- »

Kinyonga wrote: Well, a law was created to make murder illegal, presumably because someone thought it was immoral.
Kinyonga wrote: Yes, all true. But, like I implied above, legality doesn't make killing things moral.
In the first quote you claimed someone thought (or generally speaking) murder is illegal because it is immoral.

I proved it to you that murder is not illegal in all of humanities' expressions. Your initial proof or claim needed the fact that murder is illegal because it is immoral. I showed it to you that murder is not illegal, so it is either moral, or else does not show correspondence to morals.

I don't understand your second attempt at a rebuttal. It neither takes away nor adds to the strength of your or my claims.


I showed to you that legality is not equivalent to morality, and therefore your claim can not be supported by combining the two together into equivalence. Yet you used that combination in your claim. Therefore your claim is not valid.
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Phorever
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Phorever »

cynicallyinsane wrote:Is abortion wrong? Is it okay? Why?
Abortion was wrong when people believed in the soul. Now that we understand that the soul does not exist abortion is no longer wrong because no baby is special and any other one will do.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR »

Phorever wrote:
cynicallyinsane wrote:Is abortion wrong? Is it okay? Why?
Abortion was wrong when people believed in the soul. Now that we understand that the soul does not exist abortion is no longer wrong because no baby is special and any other one will do.
Right conclusion, wrong reason.
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Spectrum
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Spectrum »

OP: Is abortion wrong?
I believe the above question is very ineffective in expecting an outright answer that all must abide by it.

As usual with the Kantian approach, all moral and ethical issues must be presented in a holistic framework and system approach which is constructed with the following main sections, i.e.'
  • 1. Absolute Moral Laws - not enforceable but only to be used as a guidance.
    2. Ethical Laws - applied moral maxims
    3. Personal conscience to be improved continuously.
Outside the above Moral and Ethical Framework is the Political-Legislature-Judiciary which adapt the moral maxims into enforceable laws.

The Absolute Moral Laws;
One of the main fundamental of the moral framework is the preservation of the species.
Theoretically all human actions must align with the above mission.
In alignment with the preservation of the species, the Absolute Moral Law on abortion is;
  • "The act of deliberate abortion cannot be permissible, no ifs and no buts."
The logic is, if abortion is made universal, then theoretically the human species will be extinct.
However note this is based on pure reason as such should merely be a guide to what must be expected and not enforceable.

Ethical Laws - applied moral maxims
Morally all humans must adopt and comply with the Absolute Moral Maxim;
"The act of deliberate abortion cannot be permissible, no ifs and no buts."
But because humans are exposed to various conditions, it is impossible for all humans [come in varieties of competences] to comply with the above.
Point is the sexual drive [of the sexually active] is such that it is VERY strong and forceful and some will not have sufficient impulse controls to handle it.
Other than medical reasons, there will good reasons why some individuals or couple do not want children.

Whilst from a moral standpoint, it is absolute no abortion is permitted, in the practical world and due to various inevitable conditions, abortion must be permitted. There cannot a blanket absolute acceptance of abortion. The proviso is the conscience of the individual[s] must also be raised that they must strive to take steps avoid future abortion, e.g. care, effective contraception, and other preventive methods.
It would be morally and ethically wrong to adopt an indifferent attitude to sex and have an abortion without any effort in preventing it in the first place.

Personal Conscience
The individual must manage his conscience level re the Moral Gap on the issue of abortion. Individuals must learn how not to feel guilty about abortion but one must strive for future prevention. Thus individual[s] concern must raise their awareness to avoid a situation where they have to abort with the best possible effort.

Political-Legislature-Judiciary
Whilst mindful of the Absolute Moral Laws which is personal, an efficient Political-Legislature-Judiciary system must align with reality and permit abortion for anyone who choose to have it.
But at the same time the political authority must take steps to narrow the Moral gap to reduce the number of abortions within its citizens, e.g. raising the average awareness and consciousness of the issue on abortion.
Each government must contribute serious to the global Moral and Ethical Framework & System.

Abortion is not a matter of plain yes or no but rather abortion should be dealt on a holistic approach as presented above with grounding, strategies of actions and control.

-- Updated Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:18 pm to add the following --

"Other than medical reasons, there will good reasons why some individuals or couple do not want children" while they are 'forced' to have sex as an embedded instinct.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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