Is abortion wrong?

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Sy Borg
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sy Borg »

Over the next decade I expect death tolls from malnutrition, war, disease and extreme weather events to be such that current day hot button issues like abortion, euthanasia and sexuality will be rendered largely moot. Such politicking becomes the hubristic fussing of those who don't appreciate how lucky they are to live in places and times where such concerns can be discussed. When life and limb is under siege more pressing priorities emerge and difficult choices made much more cut-and-dry.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Spectrum »

Greta wrote:Over the next decade I expect death tolls from malnutrition, war, disease and extreme weather events to be such that current day hot button issues like abortion, euthanasia and sexuality will be rendered largely moot. Such politicking becomes the hubristic fussing of those who don't appreciate how lucky they are to live in places and times where such concerns can be discussed. When life and limb is under siege more pressing priorities emerge and difficult choices made much more cut-and-dry.
I agree the issue of abortion is not a big issue to humanity since there are already 7+ billion and increasing. The issue of abortion is only made into a big a fuss by the Abrahamic believers. Whilst there is no need for a big fuss [because God said so] we should still inject basic human values into the issue.

But the point is if we are deliberating on the issue of abortion philosophical [since it is raised here] then we have to do it rationally, objectively, systematically and in lines with the principles of the Philosophy of Morality.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Steve3007
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Steve3007 »

Also, I think issues like abortion will probably continue to be hot-button issues for many people even as they are overtaken by bigger problems, because people don't generally try to identify what is objectively the biggest problem in the world. They naturally get all riled up about the things that matter to them personally for their own reasons.

To see this, we only have to look at the relative importance that we currently attach to various different ways of dying and the people who die. 3000 people dying in terrorist attacks in September 2001 is massively more important than the 3000 people who die every month in the US in road traffic accidents. For example.

-- Updated Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:41 am to add the following --

Of course, on reflection, the importance attached to 3000 people dying in 9/11 versus 3000 people a month dying in road traffic accidents could actually be argued to have a rational basis even if the motive is to think more widely about large scale threats to society. It could be a "thin end of the wedge" argument. It could be argued that it indicates far greater deaths in the future, whereas road traffic accidents do not.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Spectrum »

Steve3007 wrote:To see this, we only have to look at the relative importance that we currently attach to various different ways of dying and the people who die. 3000 people dying in terrorist attacks in September 2001 is massively more important than the 3000 people who die every month in the US in road traffic accidents. For example.
I think you missed some important elements in this case.

There are deaths by all sorts of accidents, murders, etc., but constant attentions has been given to deal with such accidents to prevent occurrences. These accidents are due to carelessness, etc. Murders happened everywhere and they committed by individuals and very restricted groups and they are not based on a shared ideology.

911 is a serious threat because it is based on an ideology where God permit believers to kill non-believers. Not all believers will obey such command but if 10% of Muslims are willing to do that, that is potential of 150 millions evil prone Muslims around the world. This is a frightening potential and it is very real as you will note some Muslims are springing out of nowhere and killing non-believers around cities in the world. As of now you need to be very careful when attending any events with a large number of people, a bomb could go off by some who believe it is their divine duty to kill non-Muslims.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Steve3007 »

Spectrum:

I acknowledged (in general terms) this point in my "on reflection" addition to my post. As I said, I think it's essentially a "thin end of the wedge" argument. The argument then shifts to whether an event like 9/11 is sufficiently indicative of larger number of deaths in the future that it warrants much greater attention than the constant background level of road traffic accidents. Obviously, as we know,you argue that it does.

Maybe some people make some kind of similar argument about abortion? Something to do with entrenching a particular attitude to human life that they believe to be negative?
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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I would not be seduced into using the level of media traffic as a marker for philosophical importance.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Neither would I. If that were true then Donald Trump's tweets would be the most philosophically important utterances in the history of western thought.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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I think I said this aleady somewhere earlier in this thread, but it's worth repeating it.

North Americans are generally against abortion because of Christian reasons. Every soul that goes to heaven and not to hell pleases the creator. And only christians can ascend to heaven. Therefore all humans who go to hell are a sad eye-sore in the view of the almighty.

Hence, since life begins at conception, then killing a fetus increases hell's population by one, and stops heaven's population to increase by one.

THIS is the big deal against abortions.

I suggested, to remedy this, to introduce in-vitro or in-womb christening of fetuses (or feti) (or fetae), way before birth or abortion. Some christians told me that that's impossible to do. Why, I don't know. It would be a nice gesture to womenkind and to the almighty: women would not be subjected to unwanted birthing, against their will and better judgment, and the lord would get all these pre-babies into his heavenly garden.
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Spectrum
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Spectrum »

Steve3007 wrote:Spectrum:
I acknowledged (in general terms) this point in my "on reflection" addition to my post. As I said, I think it's essentially a "thin end of the wedge" argument. The argument then shifts to whether an event like 9/11 is sufficiently indicative of larger number of deaths in the future that it warrants much greater attention than the constant background level of road traffic accidents. Obviously, as we know,you argue that it does.

Maybe some people make some kind of similar argument about abortion? Something to do with entrenching a particular attitude to human life that they believe to be negative?
Islam is embedded with an inherent evil ethos and have been spreading evil since 1400+ years ago from its beginning. Americans has been warned that Islamic evils will spread to the US but no one bothered. Islamic evil on non-believers is not due to foreign policies but merely because American are disbelievers. When 911 happened the possibility of greater terror, evil and violence is forecasted and thus the anxiety and fuss. This forecast is now realized and even then the majority of Americans still cannot understand and sense the real threat is from Islam itself.

Abortion is a different issue and cannot be related to Islamic terror re 911.
As -1- has indicated it is more primarily a Christian reason in America and Abrahamic religion elsewhere.
911 is about living persons, the controversy surrounding abortion is on fetuses.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Steve3007 »

-1-, your satire puts me in mind a little of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal".

Although you both seem to be right that the abortion issue often divides along religious lines, the fundamental problem with it is the deeper issue of the definition of when a human life starts. It'll never be resolved because the answer to the question is entirely arbitrary. So the argument has as much chance of being resolved as does the argument about whether it is proper to break a boiled egg at the big end or the little end.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Scribbler60 »

Steve3007 wrote:... whether it is proper to break a boiled egg at the big end or the little end.
Big end. Always the big end. That's what my divine authority tells me, and she's always right. (Thanks, mom!)
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Steve3007 »

That's interesting, because just after I wrote that it occurred to me that almost everybody actually breaks it at the little end; is a little-endian. But maybe not. Maybe it's just me.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Steve3007 wrote:That's interesting, because just after I wrote that it occurred to me that almost everybody actually breaks it at the little end; is a little-endian. But maybe not. Maybe it's just me.
My brother is a little-ender. Don't know why: we share the same mum.

So nature or nurture? Genetics or environment?

Beats me. (Eggs... beats... get it?)





I'll show myself out, thanks.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sy Borg »

An egg should actually be broken across its equator:
... the most crack-resistant part of the eggshell is its narrow tip. The more sharply the egg curves, the more rigid the shell becomes. However, if you turn the egg 90 degrees and press down right in the very center, it will be far easier to crack—and the MIT model accounts for that. “We can’t tell you precisely when the egg is going to break,” says Reis, “but we can tell you why it makes sense to break it along that direction.”
slate.com/articles/health_and_science/f ... uffl_.html

Less efficient but more impressive was Robert de Niro's methodical annihilation approach in Angel Heart :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzRrLCUwsIs
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by -1- »

How to break a hard-boiled egg: If you are intent on eating one at a time, with a little spoon, then place it in a cute little egg-holder and cut the little end off with one swift cut with a butter knife, and proceed to carve the contents out with a tiny little spoon.

If, however, the use for the egg is for further food preparation, then you crack it at the big end and peel the shell off of the entire egg before processing.

The reason for the latter is that there is an air bag, and it's easier to open it over the airy part.

The reason for the former, is that the centre of gravity is lower if the big end is down, so there is smaller chance for the egg to roll out of the cute little holder.

That said, the abortion thing I proposed, with the christening in the womb, I meant dead seriously. There was no joke there. It even disqualifies the beginning of life as a material player in the issue. If life starts at conception, or any time later, but before christening, then the abortion is safe, god gets its little soul up to heaven. If life does not start, nothing's lost.

So... who can tell me why christening is not valid when done to a fetus in the womb? Show me the biblical reference, please.

I mean, for once I have a brilliant idea, an idea that can change the world, can put a big debate to rest to everyone's satisfaction who is a stakeholder in the debate; the idea is feasible, good, solves the problem, is cheap, fast and painless... and people laugh at it.

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