Is abortion wrong?

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Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Burning ghost »

Youngeqp wrote:Morally yes. Logically, no. A person is a person, but a baby that hasn't been born is a blank slate, it doesn't love or hate, want or need. What makes humans human is the experiences of life that add to their perception, their concept of reality. So while I don't agree with abortion, it is ultimately the mothers decision
Old and outdated view. We are most certainly not born as "blank slates". If such a view was held it would be "okay" to destroy a newly born baby in light of abortion.
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Renee
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Renee »

Burning ghost wrote:We are most certainly not born as "blank slates". If such a view was held it would be "okay" to destroy a newly born baby in light of abortion.
Well, the most modern view is that it would not harm the baby to kill it within the first 7 months of his or her life. The baby would not experience any trauma about it, so yes, it would be okay to destroy them if the need be.

I actually read that it's okay to destroy babies up to year and half, but I don't believe that. Seven-eight months into life, tops.

Then again, you'd need to find a psychopath who would be willing to do the job. And first things first, the parents have to agree to it first. Yikes.

Although not so yikes... infanticide does occur. Mothers killing their newborn if they feel the situation is not right to bring the baby up. This is punishable by law; but I think the mothers experience a biological urge, not a cruel phase.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Burning ghost wrote:
Youngeqp wrote:Morally yes. Logically, no. A person is a person, but a baby that hasn't been born is a blank slate, it doesn't love or hate, want or need. What makes humans human is the experiences of life that add to their perception, their concept of reality. So while I don't agree with abortion, it is ultimately the mothers decision
Old and outdated view. We are most certainly not born as "blank slates". If such a view was held it would be "okay" to destroy a newly born baby in light of abortion.
So we are born with personality? With likes and dislikes? Now let me start by saying that I don't agree with abortion of a completely formed fetus, because if you had the time to allow it to grow from a mess of cells to a structurally distinct human then you should have to deal with the consequences of creating this life.

That's my morality speaking.

But people feel comfortable with abortions because the unborn baby doesn't have a face, sort of speak. This makes it impersonal. When the baby is born that all changes.

And if we are to be technical. I don't think that it is possible to love an unborn child. Because you don't know it. The love that we feel for the unborn is not really love for the child at present but a love of the idea of what that child will be. A love of how life would be with it, and how you will raise it and influence it.

After all, love is an perception that can only be formed by experiences with an individual or thing. Because love is really only an extreme form of "liking". And to like something, you have to have something to like about it. And the only thing we can like about an unborn child is the fact that it is ours, and of what it could one day be.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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"It would not harm the baby to kill it" ? ?

I have a habit of pointing out misuse of language. Need I explain the issue I have here?

-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 5:17 am to add the following --

I would suggest doing some research into neurogenesis including prenatal if you're interested.

Many preconceived ideas about development has been dismissed or put to serious question in light of relatively recent technological progression in the relatively new field of cognitive neurosciences.

"blank slate" is dated and I doubt you'll find many, if any, neuroscientists that wouls say that is a reasonabke analogy.
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Renee
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Renee »

Burning ghost wrote:"It would not harm the baby to kill it" ? ?

I have a habit of pointing out misuse of language. Need I explain the issue I have here?
Your objection and demand for an explanation is justified.

I consider life worthless. Death is only considered "bad" because of the dying experience. We are all afraid of dying, because that increases our survival chances.

If someone can go through the dying process, without any negative connotations, such as fear, loathing, misgivings, the better for him or her.

If one can go through the dying process without even realizing it's happening is a winner. He can exit this miserable existence, and not go through the pain.

A baby who is not conscious, and can die without knowing life, or knowing and fearing death, is how I envision is a perfect life. Not much of a life, but the greatest let-down is missing, the most horrible experience to any conscious biological being, which is death.

"All is well if it ends well."

For a baby who feels no pain, and has not learned fear of death, and life ends for him or her, it ends well. For all others of us, who die otherwise than this baby, it does not end well.

Life is the most horrifying thing that can happen to anyone.

-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 5:27 am to add the following --
Burning ghost wrote:
Many preconceived ideas about development has been dismissed or put to serious question in light of relatively recent technological progression in the relatively new field of cognitive neurosciences.
And that's science you can give your support to!!

Of course. You are so transparent, Burning Ghost. If science discredits the bible, you reject it outright. If science seems to support the teaching of the bible, you accept that science.

I reject your scientific support. Not because it's necessarily false; no, not at all. It may well be true and valid. But I can't accept it from YOU, personally, because you cherry-pick science.

"You can't play for both teams." Science or no science, Burning Ghost? Please make up your mind. And when you came up with the answer, please stick with that. It's hard to play soccer on a field on which the goal posts are constantly moved about.

The constantly appearing and disappearing goal posts of science on the soccer field of a fanatically religious philosopher.
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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Burning ghost wrote:"It would not harm the baby to kill it" ? ?

I have a habit of pointing out misuse of language. Need I explain the issue I have here?

-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 5:17 am to add the following --

I would suggest doing some research into neurogenesis including prenatal if you're interested.

Many preconceived ideas about development has been dismissed or put to serious question in light of relatively recent technological progression in the relatively new field of cognitive neurosciences.

"blank slate" is dated and I doubt you'll find many, if any, neuroscientists that wouls say that is a reasonabke analogy.

A person is consciously"nothing" until it is made to be something. Through environment, rearing, and experiences of all types. We're pretty much computers. To be anything we have to be programed.
Londoner
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Londoner »

We do not think any creature is a 'blank slate', but we still kill them.

If we think an unborn human baby deserves some special protection it must be based on something more than the fact they already have nerves, motor responses etc.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Londoner wrote:We do not think any creature is a 'blank slate', but we still kill them.

If we think an unborn human baby deserves some special protection it must be based on something more than the fact they already have nerves, motor responses etc.
A creature may have some instincts installed in them. But they are a blank slate until they learn otherwise. I tire of hearing that a person was born a certain way, whether straight or gay, brave or cowardly. What preconceived notions could an infant possible have of itself when it hasn't experienced life
Londoner
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Londoner »

Youngeqp wrote: A creature may have some instincts installed in them. But they are a blank slate until they learn otherwise. I tire of hearing that a person was born a certain way, whether straight or gay, brave or cowardly. What preconceived notions could an infant possible have of itself when it hasn't experienced life
We could argue that we are only conscious when we have developed a sense of past and present, that is we can contrast how we are now, with how we were. Only when we can compare now with the past can we recognise ourselves as being continuous, and distinct from the world.

That means we must have experienced change. Does an unborn baby in the womb do that? You could argue that conscious life only begins with the trauma of birth.

As I suggested before, you could speculate that perhaps the fetus had some form of consciousness, some form of self awareness, but it seems unlikely that it would be greater than that of a cow, let alone a chimpanzee. And we do not regard such animals as resembling man so much that killing them is the equivalent of murdering a human.
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Londoner wrote:
Youngeqp wrote: A creature may have some instincts installed in them. But they are a blank slate until they learn otherwise. I tire of hearing that a person was born a certain way, whether straight or gay, brave or cowardly. What preconceived notions could an infant possible have of itself when it hasn't experienced life
We could argue that we are only conscious when we have developed a sense of past and present, that is we can contrast how we are now, with how we were. Only when we can compare now with the past can we recognise ourselves as being continuous, and distinct from the world.

That means we must have experienced change. Does an unborn baby in the womb do that? You could argue that conscious life only begins with the trauma of birth.

As I suggested before, you could speculate that perhaps the fetus had some form of consciousness, some form of self awareness, but it seems unlikely that it would be greater than that of a cow, let alone a chimpanzee. And we do not regard such animals as resembling man so much that killing them is the equivalent of murdering a human.
Precisely. That's logic speaking. But morally I still wouldn't abort a baby after like 3 months of incubation
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Burning ghost »

Renee -

You made me laugh so hard! Why are you talking about the "Bible"? What bizarre set of values have you attached to me now?

I think you are displaying some issues you have and are projecting them onto me. It is quite comical. I suggest you read back what I've written and see if you've possibly mistaken someone elses words for mine? I sincerely hope so for your sake or I'll have to remove the "I think" form the first sentence of this paragraph.

That said maybe I have been a little naughty in not clarifying what I said. You sounded so vehement I couldnt resist seeing where you'd go with your responses.

I don't consider my existence as "miserable" either. I often do and I often find my existence quite a fascinating and enticing subject too. Are you playing "poke the person I believe to be a religous zealot with a stick"?

Haha

-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 11:48 am to add the following --

Young -

Like I said, if it interests you do some research. We are incredible learners in our early years.
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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Burning ghost wrote:Renee -

You made me laugh so hard! Why are you talking about the "Bible"? What bizarre set of values have you attached to me now?

I think you are displaying some issues you have and are projecting them onto me. It is quite comical. I suggest you read back what I've written and see if you've possibly mistaken someone elses words for mine? I sincerely hope so for your sake or I'll have to remove the "I think" form the first sentence of this paragraph.

That said maybe I have been a little naughty in not clarifying what I said. You sounded so vehement I couldnt resist seeing where you'd go with your responses.

I don't consider my existence as "miserable" either. I often do and I often find my existence quite a fascinating and enticing subject too. Are you playing "poke the person I believe to be a religous zealot with a stick"?

Haha

-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 11:48 am to add the following --

Young -

Like I said, if it interests you do some research. We are incredible learners in our early years.
Research isn't needed. And honestly the subject of neuroscience doesn't interest me much. With that beyond said, we are at our prime in learning at our earliest years. The reason being is that we seek information, we don't believe that we know much of anything. I sincerely wish that philosophical enthusiast could see as clearly as children.

The problem here isn't neurological, even computers have neutral systems, after all they're based on the human brain now a days. The problem here is a psychological one.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

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Well ... er ... Okay, I guess? Let us not let actual research hinder our opinions about how we think the world operates.

Given that is not what you meant care to back up what you're saying with some psychological research?

I read a book called "The Scientist in the Crib - What early learning tells us about the mind". It doesn't appear what you are saying has much foundation from what I've read. This book was written by professional psychologists, although it is a little dated now.
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Youngeqp
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Youngeqp »

Burning ghost wrote:Well ... er ... Okay, I guess? Let us not let actual research hinder our opinions about how we think the world operates.

Given that is not what you meant care to back up what you're saying with some psychological research?

I read a book called "The Scientist in the Crib - What early learning tells us about the mind". It doesn't appear what you are saying has much foundation from what I've read. This book was written by professional psychologists, although it is a little dated now.

I'm not saying that research isn't vital. It just wasn't needed for my point. The thing about psychology, especially books is that they are all out dated. By the time you read something there are already newer ideas out there.

I will not refer you to an author because I am not into broad teachings, I am into direct, absolute truths. And the absolute truth of psychology is that in order for an individual to know something, it has to be taught; either by peers, environment, etc.

There are various methods of learning in psychology but to learn one must be taught. That's the only idea that I'm trying to convey
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Burning ghost
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Burning ghost »

Okay, be evasive. Not interested.
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