Is abortion wrong?

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Stevenct56
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Stevenct56 » May 5th, 2017, 4:20 pm

Abortion ethics is a very broad term. It is difficult to distinguish between the right and wrong of it. As I have read somewhere in the thread, it is believable that the foetus is actually not alive in the first few weeks and we cannot term it as killing since it hasn't got life in itself in the first place. One can't kill something that isn't alive in the first place. Moreover, the reason behind the concerned abortion also has a major role to play. In many places, there are cases of female infanticide and that sort of abortion is shamefully wrong. However, if the process is undertaken to save either's (mother or baby) life then it deserves some relaxation as it is evidently an unforeseen circumstance.

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Sean_McCleaver
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sean_McCleaver » May 5th, 2017, 6:29 pm

Is abortion wrong? Wrong if we want to accomplish what exactly? Wrong according to whom? Eliminating unfit or unhealthy infants has been a duty among many societies. Morality is a means to an end. Usually, the end is goodness. For religious folk the goal may be heaven or proper worship. Morality implies a purpose for life. If one's purpose is to maximize one's pleasure then the individual should avoid as much pain as possible.

The preposterous illogic of Ben Shapiro highlights the contradiction. In the beginning of a sentence, Ben may declare abortion is wrong because taking human life is wrong. In the end of the same sentence, Ben says rapists should be killed or castrated and jailed. Therefor, human life cannot be the property that determines his decision. There's something else to his argument.

Unless you have values that necessitate random babies to be born then I don't think it can be wrong.

Nick_A
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Nick_A » May 5th, 2017, 10:27 pm

Sean_McCleaver wrote:Is abortion wrong? Wrong if we want to accomplish what exactly? Wrong according to whom? Eliminating unfit or unhealthy infants has been a duty among many societies. Morality is a means to an end. Usually, the end is goodness. For religious folk the goal may be heaven or proper worship. Morality implies a purpose for life. If one's purpose is to maximize one's pleasure then the individual should avoid as much pain as possible.

The preposterous illogic of Ben Shapiro highlights the contradiction. In the beginning of a sentence, Ben may declare abortion is wrong because taking human life is wrong. In the end of the same sentence, Ben says rapists should be killed or castrated and jailed. Therefor, human life cannot be the property that determines his decision. There's something else to his argument.

Unless you have values that necessitate random babies to be born then I don't think it can be wrong.
Out of curiosity, when in your opinion is it right to kill?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

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Greta
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » May 5th, 2017, 11:48 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Sean_McCleaver wrote:Is abortion wrong? Wrong if we want to accomplish what exactly? Wrong according to whom? Eliminating unfit or unhealthy infants has been a duty among many societies. Morality is a means to an end. Usually, the end is goodness. For religious folk the goal may be heaven or proper worship. Morality implies a purpose for life. If one's purpose is to maximize one's pleasure then the individual should avoid as much pain as possible.

The preposterous illogic of Ben Shapiro highlights the contradiction. In the beginning of a sentence, Ben may declare abortion is wrong because taking human life is wrong. In the end of the same sentence, Ben says rapists should be killed or castrated and jailed. Therefor, human life cannot be the property that determines his decision. There's something else to his argument.

Unless you have values that necessitate random babies to be born then I don't think it can be wrong.
Out of curiosity, when in your opinion is it right to kill?
Based on humans throughout history it seems that the right time to kill is any time from conception to a hundred years old plus. If one is a certain kind of theist, then the more killed of "the enemy", the better.

As for foetuses that have more in common with lower order animals than your dog, let alone a human, killing them has all the ethical import of killing a shellfish. The only people with any moral justification for being anti abortion are socialist pacifists. Many who worry over human life in the womb think nothing of lobbying against helping the needy, thus resulting in numerous deaths of grown, lucid adult humans with loves, likes and relationships, not some little barely formed squishy thing in the womb that lacks a normally functioning nervous system during the first trimester. It's double standards. Ditto "pro life" war hawks.

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-1-
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by -1- » May 6th, 2017, 12:37 am

Nick_A wrote:Is abortion wrong? Wrong if we want to accomplish what ex
Out of curiosity, when in your opinion is it right to kill?
I am convinced that according to Christians the right time to kill is after Christening.

God wants, according to Christians, as many souls to rise into heaven after life as possible. Non-Christians can't rise to heaven. So before Christening, or Baptism, no person shalt be murdered.

Afterward, you can go nuts. Just read the Book. It will give you step-by-step instructions. Including the concept of "go forth and multiply", which ultimately ends in a cesspool of too many humans destroying the planet and human- and all natural habitat.
"You can always live without a lover, but you can't love without a liver."

Felix
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Felix » May 6th, 2017, 4:14 am

Of one is really committed to the idea, one should become a vegan Jain, wear a mask so as not to swallow and kill any microbes, gently sweep the path in front of you with a small broom whenever you walk anywhere, and of course avoid any sort of mechanical transit.

Actually, I suppose suicide is the optimum solution, it will permanently cancel you membership in the mutual eating society (a.k.a., life on Earth) and prevent you from taking any more lives.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Sean_McCleaver
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sean_McCleaver » May 6th, 2017, 8:11 am

[/quote]
Out of curiosity, when in your opinion is it right to kill?[/quote]

I think the question isn't logically coherent. It's missing the goal. Right if we want to accomplish what? From my personal stance, killing is wrong when it is done out of weakness. For example, a thug who shoots an innocent man who is walking in the thug's "territory". This is incredibly weak to me because strength is merging harmoniously with one's environment in order to conquer it. But conquering is best done through persuasion not blatant violence. So, Jesus is consider a strong person by me because he became the custodian of humanity. He was the protector. Compare someone who willingly protects others with someone who willing kills others. The killer is acting from a defensive position while the protector is offensive. Carrying a gun is already defensive as it admits the inability to avoid violence or conquer violence without a gun. In other words, the thug is admitting to not having a loyal following of people to whom he can merge with thus increasing his power and decreasing a need for a gun. The thug is antagonistic with his environment not necessarily trying to merge with it. Jesus was quite different and he suffered in the name of humanity. While the thug only cares about himself. A very defensive position indeed.

Now, obviously inner city life is rough and I can see many justifications for carrying a gun. That's not my point. The point is the feeling of needing a gun for protection (defense) to begin with.

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Nick_A » May 6th, 2017, 9:15 am

Greta
Based on humans throughout history it seems that the right time to kill is any time from conception to a hundred years old plus. If one is a certain kind of theist, then the more killed of "the enemy", the better.
-1-
I am convinced that according to Christians the right time to kill is after Christening.

But the question is Out of curiosity, when in your opinion is it right to kill? For example if you were mugging someone would it be the polite thing for you to first ask if they were christened? When is it right for YOU to kill?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by -1- » May 6th, 2017, 1:06 pm

Nick_A wrote: But the question is Out of curiosity, when in your opinionm, -1-, is it right to kill? For example if you were mugging someone would it be the polite thing for you to first ask if they were christened? When is it right for YOU to kill?
You mean when would it be for me morally right, pragmatically right, or functionally right kill?

Are we talking murder, that is, killing humans?

It's never right for me to kill. I chose a rather creative way: the non-procreative way of reducing the population size of humans on planet Earth. I don't have progeny.

I wish that many more people similar to my plight: who have a hard time with living and unfortunate mutations, also practiced self-restraint. No, I never practiced celibacy, but there are more than one way to milk a cow (or a bull).

My brother and my sister who carry the same unfortunate genes as I do, have between them five children and seven grandchildren (one adopted from a Roma family). I call them the fools.

My cousins number 17 on the side of my genome that carry faulty genes, and they have altogether 23 issues. (Children, grandchildren.) I am the only brave one and sane one -- though I am the most insane of the lot -- who said ''no'' to procreation.

When someone asks you, yes, you, to have children with them, just say ''no''.
"You can always live without a lover, but you can't love without a liver."

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Philodim
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Philodim » May 15th, 2017, 12:24 am

Is abortion wrong?
Yes.
Why?
To answer that I have to touch on lots of points.
1. God.
What is God? What is God to you. Do people really know what is God to them?
To me God is a set of very complex laws, based on nature, that is shrouded in mysticism to be easily digestible for the masses.
Is it bad? Absolutely not.
One of the laws of nature is to have a healthy offspring. Plato, in his "Plato's Republic" points out that a healthy offsprings should be produces when the woman is not older than 25 and man 33, I think.
Why?
Because people noticed that it is simply better, children are mentally and physically stronger.
2. In nature as in any religion, sex is only for reproduction. Reproduction is part of marriage among humans.
What is marriage? In nature animals will only reproduce at the time of plenty and will not when the food is scarce. Females control that.
In the old days man had to prove that he can provide for the mate, only than they were married.
Children were born and only strong would survive, that is evolution....
3. Every time man thinks that he can outsmart God (go against the nature) by making it's own laws, later realizes that he is wrong.
Upsetting the balance of nature. Killing off wolves, preventing natural fires, damming rivers, drying wetlands, in American society encouraging single mothers, welfare for life, unrestricted sex.
Is abortion wrong?
What abortion does is it :
Postpones having children at an early age, therefor robbing the society of health in the long run.
Interferes with the sanctity of marriage.
Taking away the power of God to control the destiny of man. (Natural Selection)

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » May 16th, 2017, 11:25 am

Is jaywalking wrong? Is walking on the grass when the sign clearly warns you not to, wrong? Is spitting on the sidewalk wrong?

This entire premise is flawed by using too blunt of terminology to try to describe an extremely nuanced topic. By the thread's title, how many "wrong" things do each and every one of us perform each and every day? A hundred? A thousand? What's one more?
"As usual... it depends."

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Kinyonga
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Kinyonga » August 12th, 2017, 1:21 pm

I think abortion is wrong, and would only do it if the pregnancy was endangering my life. Even that would be a hard decision and I'd be inclined to risk it, but I'd have to consider my duty towards my other children (if I had others), husband, relatives...
I agree with that marytk179 said at the beginning of this topic. Sex comes with the possibility of becoming pregnant. Don't want to be pregnant? Don't have sex. I don't see what's so fabulous about it that you'd be happy to kill for it.

At the beginning of this topic, Scott wrote:
Scott wrote:Also, why does the mother have any responsibility to take care of the fetus and nourish it? The fetus cannot survive on its own, so I don't think that qualifies as murder. In analogy, if a landlord evicts a deadbeat tenet and the now homeless tenet starves to death, that wouldn't be murder, would it?
The mother has a responsibility to take care of her unborn child because she was the one who created it. Like if you adopt a cat, you have to look after it.
Murder, according to Google = "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another"
A one year old child cannot survive on its own. I'm pretty sure that if you refused to take care of the child and it died, pleading "it couldn't survive on its own" wouldn't get you very far.
As for the analogy of the landlord and his tenant, indeed, I doubt the landlord would be charged for murder. But he would be morally responsible for the death of the man.

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » August 13th, 2017, 2:51 am

Kinyonga wrote:I think abortion is wrong, and would only do it if the pregnancy was endangering my life. Even that would be a hard decision and I'd be inclined to risk it, but I'd have to consider my duty towards my other children (if I had others), husband, relatives...
I agree with that marytk179 said at the beginning of this topic. Sex comes with the possibility of becoming pregnant. Don't want to be pregnant? Don't have sex. I don't see what's so fabulous about it that you'd be happy to kill for it.

At the beginning of this topic, Scott wrote:
Scott wrote:Also, why does the mother have any responsibility to take care of the fetus and nourish it? The fetus cannot survive on its own, so I don't think that qualifies as murder. In analogy, if a landlord evicts a deadbeat tenet and the now homeless tenet starves to death, that wouldn't be murder, would it?
The mother has a responsibility to take care of her unborn child because she was the one who created it. Like if you adopt a cat, you have to look after it.
Murder, according to Google = "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another"
A one year old child cannot survive on its own. I'm pretty sure that if you refused to take care of the child and it died, pleading "it couldn't survive on its own" wouldn't get you very far.
As for the analogy of the landlord and his tenant, indeed, I doubt the landlord would be charged for murder. But he would be morally responsible for the death of the man.
You, like everyone else, is free to think that abortion is wrong and thus are therefore free to not have one.
"As usual... it depends."

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Kinyonga
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Kinyonga » August 13th, 2017, 4:22 am

LuckyR wrote:You, like everyone else, is free to think that abortion is wrong and thus are therefore free to not have one.
Absolutely. But what do you think of my reasoning?

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » August 14th, 2017, 2:52 am

Kinyonga wrote:
LuckyR wrote:You, like everyone else, is free to think that abortion is wrong and thus are therefore free to not have one.
Absolutely. But what do you think of my reasoning?
Well, unlike many issues in philosophy, this topic is 50% personal, 25% family and 25% medical and essentially zero percent anyone else's business. So all I need to hear is that you are comfortable with your personal, family and medical reasoning and that is good enough for me.
"As usual... it depends."

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