Eating Animals

Vlad · Post by **Vlad** » February 21st, 2009, 2:26 pm

This is such a no-brainer, why are there six pages of discussion on this?

Obviously it is cruel, immoral, murder. There's not much else to say.

nameless · Post by **nameless** » February 21st, 2009, 5:00 pm

Vlad wrote:This is such a no-brainer, why are there six pages of discussion on this?

Perhaps due to the fact that there are other Perspectives than your own. Ya think?

Obviously it is cruel, immoral, murder.

From youPerspective it might be 'obvious'. That which might be 'obvious' might well differ from Perspective to Perspective (in the eye of the beholder).

There's not much else to say.

Well, there you go...

Kool-aid · Post by **Kool-aid** » February 21st, 2009, 10:11 pm

Are other animals immoral by killing eachother to feed themselves and their children?

nameless · Post by **nameless** » February 22nd, 2009, 3:55 am

^^^ It is the way of nature, of which, we are a feature (not, as ego suggests, something 'special'!).

Perhaps our 'intelligence' can be directed toward the deliberate non-infliction of suffering...
There is much 'needless' suffering inflicted in the meat farming industry. That is a reasonable avenue of 'activism' and 'education', for those who will.

Belinda · Post by **Belinda** » February 22nd, 2009, 6:52 am

Are other animals immoral by killing eachother to feed themselves and their children?

(Jarle)

Morality applies only to humans who have such vast stores of culture and reason that humans transcend all other animals to kill without reflecting upon the need to kill.

Some people anthropomorphise the natures of other animals, but this is a factual error. Other animals are amoral, not immoral.

Vlad · Post by **Vlad** » February 22nd, 2009, 12:49 pm

Belinda wrote:Morality applies only to humans...

You mitigate much too quickly...

Jarle10 wrote:Are other animals immoral by killing eachother to feed themselves and their children?

Yes, it is immoral. How do we know that? Have you ever watched one animal tear at and devour an other's face while it was still alive. Not on the telly, I mean with your own eyes (because 'no one knows who hasn't been there'). And how did you feel? In the future we will resolve this contradiction (إن شاء الله). For instance have a look at the ingredients in manufactured dog-feed, carnivores, like omnivores, do not need to tear off and devour the faces of other living creatures.

nameless wrote:...for whatever is needed to 'supply/manifest our nature', no cost is too high.

No cost is too high to bring goodness and justice into the world, but we will try to convince you to the very best that we can before having to put you to the captive bolt pistol. I don't know why I'm offering you such generous terms in light of the suffering and death a meat-eater wreaks on the world, let's agree that I am in the wrong here/now and being much too merciful. (Oh God and man and beast forgive me!)

MUST SEE: Earthlings (2003)

nameless · Post by **nameless** » February 22nd, 2009, 3:14 pm

Vlad wrote:No cost is too high to bring goodness and justice into the world, but we will try to convince you to the very best that we can before having to put you to the captive bolt pistol. I don't know why I'm offering you such generous terms in light of the suffering and death a meat-eater wreaks on the world, let's agree that I am in the wrong here/now and being much too merciful. (Oh God and man and beast forgive me!)

"We"? For whom do you speak besides yourself?
Such an emotional appeal can only be met with a subtle rolling of eyes and a sigh. Emotional appeals might work for the women, but means little to me.
What about the suffering and death that you cause, o emotional one? Shall we ignore that while you are busy pointing the finger of (diversion) blame at me?
You seem pretty violent yourself, wanting to bolt-gun me and all. (Although that seems rather like a humane method of dispatching one's dinner if used properly.)
Too bad that everyone isn't as 'enlightened' as you, eh?

Belinda · Post by **Belinda** » February 22nd, 2009, 4:06 pm

I side with Vlad in this.The solution is to try to lessen the suffering as much as possible, and humans are such greedy predators that PETA and Compassion in World Farming are having an uphill struggle.

Excelsior!

wanabe · Post by **wanabe** » February 22nd, 2009, 4:30 pm

To nameless

“Meat” farming must use more energy than “plant” farming because you need to grow crops to feed the animals. Literally it adds to the number of mouths to feed, and since chickens and cows and what have you cant eat meat, it only compounds the problem...the statistics concur with this logic.

Plants need water/dirt (nutrients) that is all. as far as harvesting we do use tractors and harvesting machines. but in some cases we cannot, like strawberries we still use human labor.

it is foolish in some way, by every avenue you mentioned.

I think we got to this now, by wanting to eat meat.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To jarle10

Jarle10 “Are other animals immoral by killing each other to feed themselves and their children?”

yes they are "immoral". we shouldn't hold them to our standards because they are in different circumstance. They don't farm for one, and the ones that kill to feed their young are predators, no carnivores, so it is necessary for their survival.

I agree with Belinda , who said: “Other animals are amoral, not immoral.”

What thoughts did you hope to bring up with this jarle10?

Kool-aid · Post by **Kool-aid** » February 22nd, 2009, 4:49 pm

Morality applies only to humans who have such vast stores of culture and reason that humans transcend all other animals to kill without reflecting upon the need to kill.

Some people anthropomorphise the natures of other animals, but this is a factual error. Other animals are amoral, not immoral.

I agree with you Belinda. We need a base moral structure in order to judge any action moral or immoral, and then only according to the moral structure. Most animals, if not all animals, does not qualify as moral agents in any moral structure I would accept. Our own instinctive moral values is, in my opinion, at best an inspiration for any moral structure. This is where this issue rise. Our empathic feelings towards animals is instinctively activating our 'moral judgement' when it suffers injustice. However, it is not reason enough to say that killing animals is immoral purely based on your instinctive feeling that it is. Obviously the human race has needed to kill animals independently of their thoughts of whether it is moral or not in order to survive. This should perhaps be taken into consideration?

Kool-aid · Post by **Kool-aid** » February 22nd, 2009, 4:50 pm

wanabe:

What thoughts did you hope to bring up with this jarle10?

I thought that the discussion was headed towards the point where arguments was based upon a gut feeling.

I refer to vlads comment:

This is such a no-brainer, why are there six pages of discussion on this?

Obviously it is cruel, immoral, murder. There's not much else to say.

wanabe · Post by **wanabe** » February 22nd, 2009, 5:39 pm

ah well i see, i have chosen to ignore vlad. i think others will start to do the same soon.

so that explains my confusion. thanks jare10

anarchyisbliss · Post by **anarchyisbliss** » February 22nd, 2009, 8:46 pm

I agree with what Belinda says about animals being amoral. But that argument can also be applied to humans ( and other life forms ). We are all amoral until we are taught morals. Animals can be taught morals: I could smack my cat each time he brings me a dead mouse and teach not to kill mice. He would learn, by whatever faculty he possesses, that killing ( at least killing mice ) is wrong.

I personally don't see anything wrong with murder, IF we lived in an amoral society. But we don't. Because we live in a society ruled by morality, I would say that it is wrong to eat animals for food. I am now a vegetarian and I have come to this conclusion after years of contemplation. There are too many people on this planet. Too many of us mindlessly consume what businesses produce. Too many of us don't realize the effect we have on the environment. Not only is eating meat immoral because the animal is most likely raised in confinement and solitude, or in squalid conditions, but the production of meat for food takes a heavy toll on the environment. So even if you don't believe that animals have rights, thoughts, or feeling, or deserve to live the lives that nature intended, it is immoral because you are destroying the world with each piece of meat you consume. You are killing the environment ergo killing other human beings ( which MANY more people see as immoral than killing other animals ).

wanabe · Post by **wanabe** » February 23rd, 2009, 4:39 am

anarchy that was a solid post, better than I have put it.

I agree, I don't think amorality applies in this circumstance because this decision affects everyone physically, it seems to transcend morality, to just plain logic.

however, im sure nameless will have a worthy rebuttal or response, and I would like to hear it.

Belinda · Post by **Belinda** » February 23rd, 2009, 7:14 am

However, it is not reason enough to say that killing animals is immoral purely based on your instinctive feeling that it is. Obviously the human race has needed to kill animals independently of their thoughts of whether it is moral or not in order to survive. This should perhaps be taken into consideration?

(Jarle)

I garee Jarle, that instinctive human sympathy is not enough and that human reason also has a part to play in moral judgements of this sort.True, humans had to kill animals to live, and may have to do so again. But this is not the situation at present. Established ethics should not be so established that they are written on tablets of stone.

The morality or otherwise of eating animals is bound up with modern sensitivites to others' pain and fear.Moderns also can understand something of which long ago people were largely unaware, that humans can live happily and heathily as vegetarians. Another reason for not using animals as food is that humans cannot continue to do so and continue to live, because meat(and possibly large scale dairy) farming is unsustainable, as Anarchy has explained.