Is suicide immoral?

[Rombomb]

The individual person's feelings are the main cause of suicide, but the consequences to other people is what makes it immoral or not. Anybody disagree?

There are two ways to read what you said. I agree with one and not the other. Here's two hypotheticals to help clarify the difference.

I am responsible for helping my children become independent. I've made the reasonable judgment call that my children prefer that I don't kill myself so that I can raise them. If I kill myself before that happens, and if I haven't prepared a situation where someone else will raise my children (a good person of course), then I'm hurting my children by not satisfying their preference. This is immoral.

Consider the same hypothetical but with one change. My kids are adults, with their own lives, their own jobs, their own families. I am no longer responsible for them. If they have a preference for my not killing myself, even in the face of my explanation that I'm suffering major pain (as in the original hypothetical I provided earlier in this thread about the 92 y.o. who broke his back), then they are wrong, and I am right, and killing myself is moral.

[Taylorthephilosopher]

(Nested quote removed.)


Now answer that question after imagining yourself in his shoes. The fact is that you cannot understand the suffering of another Human being. You pass a judgment on him in ignorance. It's shameful.


(Nested quote removed.)


Why should life be cherished, especially a miserable one? Have you not had the opportunity to experience such pain and suffering? If "the force in the universe from which life originates" finds it suitable to blaspheme us, then we shall find it suitable return the favor.

You must have empathy to see past your own circumstance. Think and speak with empathy and you will find yourself with much more intelligent things to say.

My judgement was not of the man, it was of the choice of suicide.

My empathy is uncomfortably high, my body reacts with intense emotion whenever I witness significant suffering. I become tormented and feel the same sensations that appear to be causing the person suffering.


Being in a state of pain is terrible. Life is already constantly haunted by ideas of a dark black abyss of death.

And that brings me to my evaluation of Suicide as unwise. No matter what your suffering, I can imagine death being worse. And without any chance of experience happiness or pleasure or the presence of a companion ever again.

[Spiral Out]

My judgement was not of the man, it was of the choice of suicide.

Judgement of people are made in reference to their actions. You are judging the person based on their actions. It's natural to do so because it's the only thing that can be represented of the person that we can verify. However, it's not the complete picture. I've known a few people who have committed suicide. I don't think they were "unwise" to do so, or that it was an "unwise" choice. I just think that it was a choice that they quite obviously felt was the only choice they had.

My empathy is uncomfortably high, my body reacts with intense emotion whenever I witness significant suffering. I become tormented and feel the same sensations that appear to be causing the person suffering.

The suffering of one does not negate the suffering of another. We are responsible for our own pain. We cannot be held responsible for the pain and suffering of others in the methods of how we deal with our own pain and suffering.

Being in a state of pain is terrible. Life is already constantly haunted by ideas of a dark black abyss of death.

Someone who is suicidal obviously doesn't find the dark black abyss of their death as terrifying as the dark black abyss of their life.

And that brings me to my evaluation of Suicide as unwise. No matter what your suffering, I can imagine death being worse. And without any chance of experience happiness or pleasure or the presence of a companion ever again.

This is where we differ. I view the state of death as in before life and after life. Simple non-existence. What we cared about before our existence will be the same as after. The only difference is that we think we will carry the experiences and attachments of life with us, because that's all we know.

[Rombomb]

My judgement was not of the man, it was of the choice of suicide.

My empathy is uncomfortably high, my body reacts with intense emotion

That's your mind causing that. Its not an automatic reaction.

whenever I witness significant suffering. I become tormented and feel the same sensations that appear to be causing the person suffering.

uh, what about when you imagine significant suffering? Does that invoke your empathy response?

Being in a state of pain is terrible. Life is already constantly haunted by ideas of a dark black abyss of death.

No! **You** are constantly haunted by ideas of a dark black abyss of death. I am not. Lots of people are not.

For me death is just the end of the road. I have no problem with it.

And that brings me to my evaluation of Suicide as unwise. No matter what your suffering, I can imagine death being worse.

And your imagination is wrong.

And without any chance of experience happiness or pleasure or the presence of a companion ever again.

So what? The 92 y.o. didn't see any chance of experiencing non-suffering again anyway.

[Namthebabe]

A person holds total prerogative in ending his or her life.

[Platos stepchild]

Will this forum also be locked down?

-- Updated December 12th, 2016, 9:13 pm to add the following --

Will this forum also be locked down?

[Felix]

Oh, the other suicide thread was locked? Guess it got too personal, not sure what the forum rules are regarding that.

But proceed if you wish....

[Spiral Out]

Warning: Threads in the Argumentative Philosophy Forums are for philosophical discussion only.

[Platos stepchild]

For all your talk about the Void, you disappoint me. Philosophy isn't just a rarefied discussion about marble, you've got to talk about wood, as well. If you're truly interested in the Void, then come down off your pedestal and let's get messy. Let's talk about suicide, the only real doorway into oblivion.

-- Updated December 13th, 2016, 3:23 pm to add the following --

By the way, I assume you have the ability to delete my post; but, why would you? What I've said, here is every bit as philosophical as what anyone else has said. I'm only putting skin on my words, just as Socrates did his.

[Felix]

True, if one wants to read long debates containing no philosophical content, check out the Donald Trump threads in the Ethics forum.

[Lucylu]

My judgement was not of the man, it was of the choice of suicide.

I think it can and should only be judged on a case by case basis. I am wholly in favour of assisted suicide and euthanasia if the person is deemed to be in terrible pain or their quality of life is severely diminished. I have no idea how society, in particular the medical profession, can revere life over quality of life, as it currently does. I'd go so far as to say that we cannot hope to call ourselves civilised until we allow people to die quickly and without pain. I think it is latent religious superstition to suggest that we as humans shouldn't do anything to welcome death. The irony being we aren't shy about war, but euthanasia makes us feel peculiar.

Our bodies are genetically engineered to be strong and survive hardship- our autonomic nervous system keeps us alive, even without our conscious consent or action, sometimes even when staying alive would be a living nightmare, enduring terrible pain. I don't think that overriding the autonomic nervous system in order to end suffering should be deemed immoral, when doing so in order to keep someone alive even when they are in terrible pain (e.g. suffering dementia) is 'best practice'. Is it so strange that we take some control over death and allow as many people to have a painfree, quick death as possible? What a relief that would be.

These illustrations are fairly unrealistic and I think it would be much more difficult to define the morality of a genuine suicide case. I would imagine that many genuine suicide cases are linked with mental health issues. This makes it even more difficult as the individuals attempting suicide may have limited mental capacities such as a reduced sense of autonomy or a lack of awareness of their actions.

Seeing as there is increasing evidence via modern technology and brain scans that emotional pain activates the same parts of the brain as physical pain, we can begin to see why some people can commit suicide over what may seem to be relatively superficial events, such as financial debt. It does seem more of a waste from other people's perspective, or selfish etc, but from that person's perspective it must have been devastating.

[Platos stepchild]

I want to rephrase the question, and instead ask is my suicide immoral. Why is this question being proscribed? Another, similar forum was shut down, apparently because I made certain people uncomfortable. I think it's a sham to feign interest in the tough philosophical problems, only to shut-down the conversation when someone makes those problems personal.

I'm contemplating suicide. Think of me as a reporter on the frontlines of an important issue. So, if I chronicle my decision, how is that less philosophical than the armchair discussions we've had, so far? Don't dismiss me as a troubled soul, in need of drugs and therapy. My eyes are wide open. If you want no part of my decision, that's your right, of course. But, don't play false with your professed interest in philosophy, only to turn your back on a genuine philosophical problem.

[Ozymandias]

I want to rephrase the question, and instead ask is my suicide immoral. Why is this question being proscribed? Another, similar forum was shut down, apparently because I made certain people uncomfortable. I think it's a sham to feign interest in the tough philosophical problems, only to shut-down the conversation when someone makes those problems personal.

I'm contemplating suicide. Think of me as a reporter on the frontlines of an important issue. So, if I chronicle my decision, how is that less philosophical than the armchair discussions we've had, so far? Don't dismiss me as a troubled soul, in need of drugs and therapy. My eyes are wide open. If you want no part of my decision, that's your right, of course. But, don't play false with your professed interest in philosophy, only to turn your back on a genuine philosophical problem.

Philosophical discussion is different from philosophical advice, though.
If you're looking for advice, I firmly believe that unless you're in a vegetative state or a medically confirmed state of permanent pain, suicide is more a question of wisdom than of morality or ethics, and if so, I absolutely think it is unwise. Principally, because life is almost always guaranteed to change, and often it is for the better.

From an ethical standpoint, I would like to stray away, for a moment, from the ethical impacts of suicide on those around one. I think the question that pertains more to one's own sovereignty is whether suicide has a good effect on oneself, not necessarily on others.. Going back to the principle that life, if not certainly deemed otherwise, is destined to change: if there is any chance, at all, of life changing for the better, it is logical and moral to give one's future self the benefit of the doubt.

To expand on that, I tend to think of my self as far more than one person. In a simplified view, I'm a different person than I was a year ago. In a confusingly big view, I'm a diferrent person than I was a second ago and than I will be a second in the future. I, as a person, am defined by my experiences and ideas, which always change. Thus, the "me" 10 years in the future must be considered a separate human, when in regards to ethics. If I were to commit suicide right now, I would also be depriving my future selves of life, and thus, committing murder, which is not ethical in that case.

[Renee]

Is my suicide immoral? I would say it's not immortal, that's more sure than that it's not immoral.

I thought of suicide often, and tried it on for size in serious attempts about three times. At none of these times was ethics a consideration for me at all.

In my opinion suicidal people are mutants; the strain can be genetically passed down. My grandfather and one of my uncles (child of the same grampa) committed suicide. Neither were mentally ill. They just thought that it would be a better idea (or ideal) than to continue living.

The only problem with suicide, for me at least, is the fear of death. Yikes. I died once; in my childhood, during a game boys play I was suffocated unintentionally by others and I passed out for an undisclosed amount of time. I revived naturally, not by artificial resuscitation. The actual experience was just a little bit unpleasant. Not a big deal, nothing horribly or even overly traumatic about it. It was unpleasant in craving oxygen and in realizing this is it, so to speak. But both feelings (the craving and the fear) passed at the point of entering death.

When I came to, altogether I was no different than before I had exited.

Also, life is much more unpleasant, uncomfortable, "itchy and scratchy" at best (so to speak) than death was.

[Platos stepchild]

You suggested that suicide is a genetic predisposition. But, clearly it must be passed down before taking affect. (Otherwise, such a predisposition would quickly be edited out of the genepool). It's unclear why this should be so. What guarantee is there that the carrier of a suicide gene would precreate before killing himself? Note: I draw a distinction between genetically predisposed suicide, and altruism. Altruism is death-with-a-purpose, whereas suicide is just death.

-- Updated December 13th, 2016, 10:20 pm to add the following --

Here's a question: I'm contemplating suicide because I'm futureless. But, I still have a natural aversion to death. I'm teetering with ambivalence. So, how do I overcome that aversion?