Torture

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Keithprosser3
Posts: 364
Joined: April 15th, 2013, 7:22 am

Re: Torture

Post by Keithprosser3 »

It is ethical to torture somebody in the classic "the nuke is about to go off in NYC" scenario,
Note to UK members: That scenario doesn't apply to Telford or Milton Keynes.

One can assume that the subject has the power to tell people about the nuke in NYC without being tortured but chooses not to, condemning millions of people to death. I am of the opinion that such a person has forfeited the right to protection.

The problem as always is that the extremes are obvious - torture is not ok for a parking offence, but it is ok to save the lives of millions - but there is a huge gray area where things are not obvious. The desire is to simplify a complex question into a simple binary one - torture is ok or torture is never ok, but there seems no overriding reason why complex moral should be reducible to slogans. It may not be possible to formulate a scheme that determines the 'right' thing to do in every circumstance other than applying intelligence (or common sense) on a case by case basis.
User avatar
Theophane
Posts: 2349
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Torture

Post by Theophane »

One can assume that the subject has the power to tell people about the nuke in NYC without being tortured but chooses not to, condemning millions of people to death
Torture doesn't work.

What would prevent such an individual from lying or deliberately misleading the interrogators if he knows the exact location of the bomb? How would the interrogators know if what the subject confesses is a lie? What if the subject would rather be tortured or killed than give up the information?
User avatar
Steezy Philosoraptor
Posts: 46
Joined: April 16th, 2013, 2:40 am

Re: Torture

Post by Steezy Philosoraptor »

Torture doesn't work.

What would prevent such an individual from lying or deliberately misleading the interrogators if he knows the exact location of the bomb? How would the interrogators know if what the subject confesses is a lie? What if the subject would rather be tortured or killed than give up the information?[/quote]

I think torture absolutely works, it has in the past and I'm sure it will in the future, they have the option of not giving the information, while most people would give the right information to stop the pain, sometimes torture can be keeping you alive, not sure if you are saying torture never works, or if it has the potential to not work. I you are saying it has the potential to not work, I would have to agree, but eve if there was the slightest chance it would work, is it moral, that is the question. Can you cause pain intentionally to save someone else's life? Or multiple lives?
Namthebabe
Posts: 327
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 1:45 pm

Re: Torture

Post by Namthebabe »

meh, people can get tortured all they want.

anything goes in life.
User avatar
Plato
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: November 7th, 2017, 6:31 am

Re: Torture

Post by Plato »

Your taxes pay for illegal immigrants, debt, war, curfews, gun bans, NSA wiretapping, checkpoints, forfeiture, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, torture, kill lists, no fly lists, searches without warrants, private prisons, mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, DNA databases, CISPA, SOPA, NDAA, IMBRA, FBAR, FATCA, TSA groping, secret FISA courts, and Jade Helm.
User avatar
Kathyd
Posts: 59
Joined: June 21st, 2017, 3:43 pm

Re: Torture

Post by Kathyd »

I could support torture in the very limited circumstances the OP gave in his original post.

But in no other conditions could I imagine anyone supporting it.
User avatar
SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: Torture

Post by SimpleGuy »

The problem is, that a society can redefine it's values and with it call things that were once legal now illegal. Would you be confident then with your thesis ? Certainly not. Just think about that some thing can be a cavaliers delict , that means everybody does it would you torture for it. And is this most of the times a physical torture or a psychological one, both of them should not get accepted. To accept a state as such and think that most of it's actions are humanistic is already some kind of fascism. Even if you are a conscientious objector (Kriegsdienstverweigerer) one could get tortured then. This should not happen in any state, nobody wants to fight or a support of warfare. Torture , physical or psychological, should be abolished in any sense.

-- Updated November 13th, 2017, 8:19 am to add the following --

One should always keep in mind. That all violence physical as psychological comes from the state, to support this by supporting torture would mean, that we shall indulge fascism as well as nazism from a society which by hypotrical justification is endowed to discriminate oneself by simple means of law.
User avatar
Scribbler60
Posts: 177
Joined: December 17th, 2015, 11:48 am

Re: Torture

Post by Scribbler60 »

Simple fact is that torture is a terrible way of obtaining accurate information. It has always been thus.

Sources: So, given that it's clear that torture doesn't work, I think the more insightful question would be, "Since it's been established that torture doesn't work, why to some people still advocate it?"
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Torture

Post by Namelesss »

Steezy Philosoraptor wrote:I believe there are situations in which torture may be permissible
That is the difference between the vanity and conditionality of 'morality', and the unconditionality of 'ethics'.

'Morality' is the insanity of judging others, placing 'conditions' on one's 'good graces'.

'Ethics', on the other hand, is;
"Do NOT do to others what you do not want done to you!"
Simple, always applicable, 'unconditional'!
An ethical person would not torture others. Simple.
Moral people do it all the time. The world is loaded with the insanity of 'morality'!
Few are the unconditional Love/Enlightened where 'ethics' are found!
User avatar
tim-qij
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: February 26th, 2018, 9:26 am

Re: Torture

Post by tim-qij »

I believe that torture is never ever acceptable under any circumstances whatsoever.

I believe that as soon as we start using the methods of the enemy, we become the enemy.

We must retain the moral high ground. Otherwise, what are we fighting for?
User avatar
Bayez
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: February 27th, 2018, 4:04 pm

Re: Torture

Post by Bayez »

Steezy Philosoraptor wrote: May 19th, 2013, 6:30 pm I believe there are situations in which torture may be permissible, never in a situation where you capture someone and just torture them, or if they have done something wrong, and you torture them, I will admit there may be some crimes that one may commit that could lead others to torture someone else, and I may understand why they would, but never would I say it is the right thing to do.


In a situation where lives are at stake and the only way to get the information to save the lives is to torture the person with the information to save them, I believe that is ok. How about when you have two people involved (terrorist 1 and terrorist 2), two terrorists who know each other and terrorist 1 has the information and terrorist 2 does not, terrorist 1 is not giving it to you, so you grab terrorist 2 and start torturing the him while making terrorist 1 watch, if you believe this will help you obtain the information, is this immoral?


If you disagree, put yourself in a situation where you as a parent (if you do not have kids put yourself in your parents shoes) are getting this information because your child or children are in harm’s way. Most people would understand the parents ambition to do whatever it takes to save their child. If this is ok than you would have to agree with the first scenario, even if it were people you have never met, because you can never determine the importance of someone else’s life, and it would be wrong to not try and save their lives right?
One idea is that you will be torturing someone however you might not even admit to it. Take Lord of The Rings, for example, where SAM grabs and pulls at Smeagul, and there is also the scene where he is being pulled along by rope. Are Frodo and Sam torturing Smeagul? .. or are they helping him? Helping themselves?
User avatar
Bayez
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: February 27th, 2018, 4:04 pm

Re: Torture

Post by Bayez »

tim-qij wrote: February 27th, 2018, 8:19 am I believe that torture is never ever acceptable under any circumstances whatsoever.

I believe that as soon as we start using the methods of the enemy, we become the enemy.

We must retain the moral high ground. Otherwise, what are we fighting for?
What if you were in an SHTF situation. Your child had been kidnapped by another group over the hill. You don't know how many there are, or what resources they have. Do they have water / food / guns / - and do they have your child ?
You have captured one of their people but they aren't telling you anything.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021