Torture

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Maidservant
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Re: Torture

Post by Maidservant » May 28th, 2013, 1:27 am

Pain is pain. That's even a different topic than torture, IMO.

Giving birth to a baby involves pain.

Training for the Olympics involves pain.

Pain can exist even in the absence of harm.

But, indeed, I do not see the call that so many in this world seem to feel to inflict harm, bleeding, humiliation, damage, assault, and yes, pain, on other humans. And justified by a narrative.

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DaniellaElaVille1
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Re: Torture

Post by DaniellaElaVille1 » May 28th, 2013, 2:23 am

Namthebabe wrote:Torture is always wrong IMO. I don't ever condone causing people pain.
Though, you have to think about it from a different perspective. I'm only 16, a very curious young one, but I do believe that torture is only exceptional on personal accounts. If your mother was brutally murdered, and she died scared for her life, feeling intense pain, and you were given the opportunity to have the murderer tortured to death, you cannot tell me you wouldn't take this offer.

Daviddunn
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Re: Torture

Post by Daviddunn » May 28th, 2013, 4:38 am

Hello Daniella, leave vengence to the Lord my friend, He will do a better 'job' than you could possibly devise.

Simplecyx
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Re: Torture

Post by Simplecyx » May 28th, 2013, 8:19 am

Really hard to decide what to do, maybe it is not morality in this case should be involved. Because seems no solution in this aspect.

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Kepler1571
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Re: Torture

Post by Kepler1571 » May 28th, 2013, 9:14 am

DaniellaElaVille1 wrote:Though, you have to think about it from a different perspective. I'm only 16, a very curious young one, but I do believe that torture is only exceptional on personal accounts. If your mother was brutally murdered, and she died scared for her life, feeling intense pain, and you were given the opportunity to have the murderer tortured to death, you cannot tell me you wouldn't take this offer.
This is the difference between what the right thing to do is and what the understandable thing to do is.

Let's examine the consequences of that situation. Let's make it very simple: you have the murderer at your mercy and nobody will ever know. I think you have three practical choices. (1) is to torture the murderer to death. (2) is to kill them cleanly and be done with it. (3) is to call the cops.

(1) makes you a torturer, something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. Assuming you aren't a sociopath, I think this is something you need to think long and hard about before deciding to do it. You are basically committing your future self to carrying around that responsibility always.

(2) makes you an executioner. Again, you will have to carry around the responsibility but at last there is a fairly agreed-upon narrative that in committing murder the murderer compromised his right to life.

I think the one choice to stay away from is (1). It is not just that torture is always wrong (though it is), but that in attempting to exact some sort of "payment" from the murderer what you are doing is giving yourself a huge debt to yourself that you then have to spend the rest of your life either repaying or suppressing. That may be morally perilous, and if nothing else it sounds like a lot of work.

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Re: Torture

Post by Daviddunn » May 28th, 2013, 9:27 am

Murder is preferable than torture. Forgiving and forgetting is best of all. Let God decide for the rest.

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Re: Torture

Post by Xris » May 28th, 2013, 11:15 am

It depends on what you call torture and what you call pain.It depends on what life you choose to save. Lets say a man condemned to die for horrendous murder has information that will save a thousand lives.You promise him freedom in exchange for the information but never intend to let him free. Is that torture?

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Kepler1571
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Re: Torture

Post by Kepler1571 » May 28th, 2013, 11:27 am

Xris wrote:It depends on what you call torture and what you call pain.It depends on what life you choose to save. Lets say a man condemned to die for horrendous murder has information that will save a thousand lives.You promise him freedom in exchange for the information but never intend to let him free. Is that torture?
No, that's "torture" only in the metaphorical sense that it is torture to be a Mets fan. Torture is physical duress.

There are other coercive acts that don't make you a model citizen but fall short of torture. For instance, threatening to torture isn't torture (or you have an infinite regress). Those things may still be wrong, but they're not torture.

I don't think it depends on "what life you choose to save." Torture is one of those things that's outside the utilitarian calculus. It's just a wrong without condition. The classic "ticking time bomb" justification is false, since if it were true it would also justify, for example, torturing the information source's children. After all, more innocent lives would be saved.

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Re: Torture

Post by Daviddunn » May 28th, 2013, 11:35 am

If I am not mistaken, from some international law provision, might be the Geneva convention, there is a distinction between inhuman treatment and torture. I guess you must be refering to the distinction between psychological pain and physical pain. Torture has much relation to the latter, whereas persecution is more aimed at the mind. Both are bad but it seems there is a degree where torture is construed as ultimate evil.

Lieing to get information to save lives is a much much lesser evil, and I think it is justified in this case. I could happily live with that, and even get a sense of having done something good.

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Kepler1571
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Re: Torture

Post by Kepler1571 » May 28th, 2013, 11:43 am

Daviddunn wrote:If I am not mistaken, from some international law provision, might be the Geneva convention, there is a distinction between inhuman treatment and torture.
You are not mistaken. There even appears to be an acronym, CIDT (cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment), that captures the distinction.

Though there are distinguished, international law prohibits both.

Daviddunn
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Re: Torture

Post by Daviddunn » May 28th, 2013, 12:03 pm

@kepler. Thanks for the reminder.

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Re: Torture

Post by Xris » May 28th, 2013, 12:05 pm

Kepler1571 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

No, that's "torture" only in the metaphorical sense that it is torture to be a Mets fan. Torture is physical duress.

There are other coercive acts that don't make you a model citizen but fall short of torture. For instance, threatening to torture isn't torture (or you have an infinite regress). Those things may still be wrong, but they're not torture.

I don't think it depends on "what life you choose to save." Torture is one of those things that's outside the utilitarian calculus. It's just a wrong without condition. The classic "ticking time bomb" justification is false, since if it were true it would also justify, for example, torturing the information source's children. After all, more innocent lives would be saved.
I have mentioned this subject before. I was privy to certain army intelligence acts that could in todays views be seen as torture but no long term harm was done. The prisoner was tricked into believing the most terrible injury was being inflicted upon him.They all submitted and gave credible information. They were all released with no sign of injury and would never complain because of the shame. But they suffered.The idea that torture is simply an act of violence is a naive view in my opinion. Interrogation, investigation and torture are all suitable tools as long as we do no long term harm or lasting injury.

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Re: Torture

Post by Daviddunn » May 28th, 2013, 1:25 pm

So it was psychological persecution. It might be justified under exceptional circumstances like saving lives and the person being inflicted these psych pain is a bad person. It being used as a tool might not be sufficient, but all means must have been exhausted and it be the only remaining tool and used with a sense of duty. The law of man does not carry much harm, the law of God is to be most feared, for it is said as you do unto others will be done unto you. From that, I understand that to extricate badness from one's heart, God might resort to such means to bring about a good or favorable outcome. And one could not then complain for He is treating one by his/her own living principles, and most of us are very much impure in front of God, even the better ones. So if one must resort to such treatment of others, then one's heart must be more or less pure. But if one's heart is more or less pure, one would refrain from resorting to such treatment. Therefore, going on the road of psychological persecution should be done with this in mind, so that one dampens, measures and understands the possible consequences of his/her actions.

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Theophane
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Re: Torture

Post by Theophane » June 1st, 2013, 7:35 am

HIHIHIHIHI wrote:I will recant myself then;

a world without morals, is a world with unavoidable pain.

a world with morals, is a world with avoidable pain.
With or without morals, this life brings unavoidable pain and suffering. It is a vale of tears that we traverse.

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Theophane
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Re: Torture

Post by Theophane » June 2nd, 2013, 8:07 am

Namthebabe wrote:I'm entitled to my opinion, you dumb bitch.

lol..

Who the **** hell are you to tell me how to think?
Reported.

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