Can suicide be justified?

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Granth
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Granth »

Theophane wrote:


(Nested quote removed.)


Dying is easy. Living is hard!
Dying is inextricably linked with living. And just to highlight this point, the same drug can make either "dying" or "living" seem (drugged perception) easy. The point is that there is no consciousness that chooses life to be hard. "Hard" is an unconscious process.
If reality was determined by a popularity vote we would not have any pioneers.
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Anathematized_one
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Anathematized_one »

Theophane wrote:Are you an ancient samurai, Anathemized_one? I'm not. Do you adhere to the strict code of Bushido? I don't! Do you honestly believe death is infinitely more desirable than dishonour? How many humiliations and defeats have you suffered in your lifetime? Probably many. Personally, I think even the worst loss of face is bearable (if you can find the strength) without resorting to ritual self-disembowelment. I choose to go on living even amid my shame and dishonour.
Why would it matter if I was or not? You're REALLY terrible at logical debate; the logical fallacies here are so blatant and obvious that I'm not even going to bother because all you're going to do is counter with more extreme non-sequitur sophistry.
Why is death so attractive for you? You seem to prefer the dark (spiritually speaking).
Actually, it isn't attractive for me and I don't prefer dark or light or anything (spiritually speaking), but thank you for the near ad hominem baseless assumptions and accusations.
Dying is easy. Living is hard!
And yet more illogical, unqualified, thought-terminating clichés...
Granth wrote:Dying is inextricably linked with living. And just to highlight this point, the same drug can make either "dying" or "living" seem (drugged perception) easy. The point is that there is no consciousness that chooses life to be hard. "Hard" is an unconscious process.
Agreed. Almost nobody would willingly choose a hard life for no reason. None are born in a completely equal state nor live in an equal state. All men are not "created equal" or given equal opportunity or beginnings. Some are "lucky" from birth, some "unlucky"; some work hard, some do not... and yet any person with any combination of beginnings, luck or hard work end up having an easy or hard life due, at least in part, to contingencies outside of their control.
*NOTE!
I'm never indirect/insinuating w/out explicitly saying I am (but may not say exactly what). I have a large vocabulary, but use common speech (not all are the same reading level or speak native English). What I say means exactly that and nothing else.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Thinking critical »

Terminating ones own life is without a doubt tragic, the least others can do is appreciate that the individual who chose to end his/her own life had good reason for doing so. They should be remembered for how they lived their lives not by how they ended it. To say a victim of suicide is cowardly is pure subjective speculation, why project your own misconceptions onto someone who can not defend them? That in itself is a true tragedy.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
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Poptart
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Poptart »

Theophane wrote:
There's nothing noble about suicide. There's nothing good or empowering in it. It's cowardly.
Where did you get that idea from?

Consider this:

A soldier volunteers for a mission which will most certainly result in his death. For this he is honoured and revered, showered with medals for his selfless sacrifice. But a man who decides his life is futile and chooses to waste no more resources by ending it is called a coward. Can you see a certain hypocrisy here?

I think you will find that those religions which condemn suicide do so not because they value life (because those same priests who condemn the suicide will happily attend an execution or bless the grave of a war hero) but because they want to prevent people from having control over their own lives.
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Theophane
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Theophane »

I think that is your own paranoia talking.
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Poptart
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Poptart »

Theophane wrote:I think that is your own paranoia talking.
Oh dear, is that the best you can do? :bored:

Ad hominem arguments are prohibited according to the forum rules, btw.
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Theophane
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Theophane »

Where did you get that idea from?

Consider this:

A soldier volunteers for a mission which will most certainly result in his death. For this he is honoured and revered, showered with medals for his selfless sacrifice. But a man who decides his life is futile and chooses to waste no more resources by ending it is called a coward. Can you see a certain hypocrisy here?

I think you will find that those religions which condemn suicide do so not because they value life (because those same priests who condemn the suicide will happily attend an execution or bless the grave of a war hero) but because they want to prevent people from having control over their own lives.
I think you're wrong. I think you just want someone to agree with you.
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Anathematized_one
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Anathematized_one »

Theophane wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


I think you're wrong. I think you just want someone to agree with you.
Technically, you are the only one not qualifying his/her position and making logical fallacies and not arguing against any points made, just using and hominem attacks against different people who disagree.

So you can say one is wrong all you want, but without qualifying why without attacking the person rather than the argument, your argument remains completely invalid and therefore the only point here that is truly wrong.

I could easily say I think you're an idiot who is nothing more than a contrarian, but without qualifying why, it cannot be assumed to be true nor is it relevant to proving your argument wrong. It is impossible to prove your argument wrong as you have yet to make an actual argument.
*NOTE!
I'm never indirect/insinuating w/out explicitly saying I am (but may not say exactly what). I have a large vocabulary, but use common speech (not all are the same reading level or speak native English). What I say means exactly that and nothing else.
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Discards
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Discards »

Granth wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


No, not too blunt. I just didn't find anything in your response to dispute. "The ringer", for anyone who has become aware of it's possibility to arise at any time, is nothing more than like being aware of death always being at one's shoulder. It is not something either myself or my friend needs to fear or control. It is just part of shedding this disguise, or, the effective "growth" process of elimination rather than accumulation. It is merely momentum.
Hmm. I'm not sure we're talking of the same thing. What you describe sounds more like "annihilation anxiety". I am describing a physiological response involving the mind with regards to "addressing" the "problem" that annihilation anxiety poses.
To be is to do. To do is to be. Do-be, do-be, do-be, do. - the philosophical importance of Scoobie-do is to Scoobie-be!
Granth
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Granth »

Discards wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Hmm. I'm not sure we're talking of the same thing. What you describe sounds more like "annihilation anxiety". I am describing a physiological response involving the mind with regards to "addressing" the "problem" that annihilation anxiety poses.
Nothing in that unless you can describe this "addressing the problem". Physiological, you say. What do you mean?
If reality was determined by a popularity vote we would not have any pioneers.
Ablity
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Ablity »

Anything can be justified because justifying something means making it right or making it just, which if it was just in the first place, one would not need to justify it. I heard people that do not even believe in God say suicide is "selfish," as if every action of everyday is not. Being that objective morality does not exist, I would look at this from a political perceptive. As a politic libertarian, suicide being considered a crime or social shame is completely nonsensical. Why would we make someone live that does not want to live, as if life is intrinsic desirable.
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Discards
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Discards »

Granth wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Nothing in that unless you can describe this "addressing the problem". Physiological, you say. What do you mean?
I suppose the "problem" that arises from the anxiety associated with annihilation is purely a matter of perspective. One can be utterly compounded into solipsism and universal consciousness at once. The unification of all being destroyed in the perceived notion of one being is the weight of the world. The problem with annihilation anxiety is to have this weight of the world on top of you - when in fact we all carry it. Nonetheless the utter destruction of it among all citizens of humanity, ontology, and thereabouts is a potentiality. Terror describes the feeling that goes with annihilation anxiety. It is purely conceptual.

So the mind does the only thing it is capable of in order to make amends with the world it is set to destroy. It eliminates the ability to conceptualize. As the brain is the centre for conceptualization, a physiological occurance accompanies a mental occurance in the process of responding to the lack of existence faced as a potential in the hybrid being of the forsaken messiah to be.

The mind controls itself. It clamps down on itself. Somewhere between physical presence and conceptual thought a clamp is placed inside the mind. Depending on the severity of one's dilemma, the clamp is stronger or weaker. In my case it was stronger because, for whatever reason, I was destined to carry the weight of the world for a longer period - compared to the average person. Are we talking about the same thing?
To be is to do. To do is to be. Do-be, do-be, do-be, do. - the philosophical importance of Scoobie-do is to Scoobie-be!
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Pduran369
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Pduran369 »

I have been questioning this myself. I have my best friend's brother in my mind when I talk about this. He has Asberger's, he is a paranoid schizophrenic, has severe OCD and just to add the icing on the cake he is spoiled beyond belief. When he doesn't get his way he pretends to have spasms, he hits the walls, he makes his mother drive him to walk in clinics just so that he can complain about her, me or his brother. He asked me the other day why he should be here, that he wanted to kill himself and I said, "you can do whatever you like. You are your own person but there would be lots of people here that would miss you." He replied "besides, mom and my brother and you who else?" I realized at that moment that maybe he was right. You don't drive, you don't have any friends, you have never made love, don't have a girlfriend, you don't have talent, you don't read, barely write, you have no education, you throw tantrums half the day, you can't even order anything off a menu without making it awkward, you fake illnesses for attention-even though you have all the attention you could want, then what's stopping you? Keep in mind I didn't say this, I just thought it. I did talk him out of it, but as I was reading these posts I thought, folks are right, your life belongs to you. We tattoo our bodies, we pierce them, we smoke, or we treat your bodies like temples. We should have a right to do that shouldn't we? People say it's s selfish thing to do, that it's the cowardly way out, but when I think of another friend of mine who committed suicide and hung for about 15 minutes before he passed I thought to myself, that's not cowardly is it? It takes alot of strength to wrap a rope around your neck knowing you're going to struggle. This may sound like a rant, maybe it is, but this forum just brought these things up and I am willing and want to hear feedback from you guys.
Burke
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by Burke »

We can only get so far with these quick replies. Issues related to ethics have always troubled me. Very soon we get to assumptions, criteria, and is-ought questions. One good thing about philosophy is the value it sees in making crucial distinctions. For example, on suicide, you have people who are quite rational and have their loved ones around them when they commit suicide. In other words, the affect on other people is taken into consideration and this would seem to alleviate some of the guilt associated with suicide. No harm, no foul. In other cases, people in the throes of a deep depression who commit suicide are usually thought to be beyond responsibility for their actions, regardless of whether it hurts other interested parties.

Anybody for philosophy of science?

Burke

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SoylentGreen
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Re: Can suicide be justified?

Post by SoylentGreen »

Keithprosser3 wrote:I think that in some cases suicide is not only justified but should be mandatory. Jim Carrey and Sarah Palin spring to mind.
If we think further there's a phonebook or two or more that could be added to the list. There's only a few people I'd leave out, but they're mostly already all dead. Overall however, I believe if we all committed mass suicide the world would be a much improved place.

Also in response to the thread, I did not ask to be born. I was put into existence by some force outside of my power and I was entirely incapable of intervening to prevent it. Had I been able to foresee my future life, I would have prevented it; thus, suicide is not morally unjustifiable. However having said that, I'm married, and I have to consider what the effect would be on my better half. Would the cops come in and arrest my wife for murder? We all know the first suspect is either the husband or the wife. So my suicide would in that case be morally unjustifiable as the cops would frame my wife for murder and make her life utterly miserable. There is the welfare of someone else at stake. And it wouldn't be the first time the cops have framed an innocent person. They do it as a matter of habit, all the time, so they can say they've done their jobs and close all those open files they make them look so inefficient.
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