Euthanasia- Good or bad?

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Stormcloud
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Stormcloud » August 20th, 2013, 9:37 pm

I'm out of here - theres too much censorship!

Laurence43
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Laurence43 » August 21st, 2013, 2:03 pm

Why worry. Euthanasia cannot be done without some control. Grannies can be persuaded that they are a burden or it would be best for everyone if they were not there. that is not to mention the attraction of expected inheritance etc. this is not censorship. If a very sympathetic stance is taken all that is happening is that it is being ensured that actions which have been taken in the interests of the newly deceased.

Metathought
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Metathought » September 9th, 2013, 11:32 pm

Euthanasia is a very controversial issue. One of the chief arguments some may have against it is that in possibly one in a million, or even less, cases, persons with so-called incurable afflictions may recover. This is more a mathematical distribution of probability than anything else. The anti-euthanasia expert can argue that we can never know which one of the million cases may recover from his/her affliction so that by putting someone out of his/her misery, we may have robbed that person of a chance to recover and lead a normal life.

The key question here is whether or not the suffering individual is interested in prolonging his or her life. If such a person still clings to the hope of recovery and of leading a normal life regardless of the suffering he or she may be experiencing and in spite of medical science's helplessness in treating his or her illness, then euthanasia may be questionable in such a case.

However, if the individual has given up all hope of recovery and looks forward to death as a relief from his or her suffering and medical science admits its helplessness in curing that person, there may be an argument for euthanasia. But I think it should really be performed with the suffering individual's consent.

Stormcloud
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Stormcloud » September 10th, 2013, 12:38 am

:D :D People, generally, are led to place too much emphasis on quantity rather than quality. The great composer Bach wrote a piece titled "Come sweet death o come blessed rest" whilst Gabriel Faure composed his Requiem with the idea that dying is a joyful time to celebrate and his beautiful, moving Requiem reflects that. If people of the western world didnt live their lives so far removed from this reality they may find death more welcoming along with relieving people of terrible suffering without feeling religious guilt. I hear now that the percentage of Australians that support Euthanasia or, dying with dignity has jumped to 80% - should easily be enough to drown out the screaming religious freaks! If Euthanasia is such an issue why is it legal in several countries and various states around the world? Do you not think that they have done their homework? Euthanasia is not infallible, but what of our systems are?? :D

Metathought
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Metathought » September 10th, 2013, 9:50 pm

In my earlier contribution, post#33, I did not mention the case of the individual so acutely afflicted that he or she is in a vegetable state and is unable to make a decision on the matter. I believe that in such a case, the next of kin should be permitted to make the decision for the individual.

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Mike A.
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Mike A. » September 11th, 2013, 3:01 pm

Health care proxy. Designate conditions. Designate your representative or who you wish to carry out your directions. Hope that your wishes are honored. Or do it yourself.
"I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin."
Hondo [played by John Wayne in the title role]

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BadgerBob
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by BadgerBob » September 14th, 2013, 7:42 pm

In Australia, surveys show that an overwhelming majority of people are in favour of voluntary euthanasia. Certainly, approaching 80 years of age and with an unpromising medical condition, I would have a better life if I knew that I could end it painlessly, when I wanted to. The ABC reports that - shock, horror - people are illegal importing 'peaceful pills' from China, with the medical and financial uncertainties surrounding this. There is also a fine for 'being in possession' of more than $800,000, although so far no convictions. Where is our sense of proportion ... look at the really harmful drugs out on the street, the traffickers, the deaths and the misery.

So why does a tiny minority of voters continue to influence government to ban voluntary euthanasia. As far as I can see there are three reasons given by that minority:

(1) The 'Right to Lifers'. An elderly relative of mine, mid-80s, blind and in agony, unable to eat, took an astonishing two months to die. Her doctor, who had promised to ease her out with morphine was reported - by a 'Right to Life' nurse - to the medical authorities as prescribing doses of morphine that could be fatal, rather than upholding her right to die in immense suffering. What a terrible thing to have done. The patient managed to save up her painkillers and sleeping pills to kill herself (on the third attempt). What are we thinking of? If we have a right to life, we must have a right to die. Both are rather inevitable.

(2) The religious mob: 'Jesus wouldn't like it'. Well, Jesus committed suicide and I am sure that given the choice he would have preferred a 'peaceful pill' to being nailed to a cross. But then, he wanted to be a martyr; most of us don't.

(3) Legal aspects. People might use a 'peaceful pill' to bump off elderly relatives. Voluntary euthanasia might be used to murder people. Let's get real. We have lots of very unpleasant murders in society ... knives, guns, ropes, cars ... you name it. And we have courts and penalties (inadequate though both may be). If we were to ban every item that could be used to kill somebody, what would we have left? Not even our hands. Anyway, given the choice, I would rather take a pill than be suffocated by a grandchild after my deposit account. So why is this one way of dying singled out from all others for special treatment, high penalties and public condemnation? Should we not legalise voluntary euthanasia - with whatever legal and medical safeguards are reasonable - and allow life, death and occasional legal processes to run their normal course?

Jklint
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Jklint » September 14th, 2013, 10:50 pm

Lily_Alex wrote: ["A man, even if seriously sick or prevented in the exercise of its higher functions, is and will be always a man ... [he] will never become a 'vegetable' or an 'animal,'" the Pope said. "The intrinsic value and personal dignity of every human being does not change depending on their circumstances." ... Pope John Paul II, 2004]
The Pope was in idiot who was in imminent danger of turning into a vegetable himself. Furthermore when he still had most of his neurons communicating with their next door neighbor he was a master of hypocrisy whose acting abilities - in which he was very well trained - served to convince the brain paralyzed which is most of the population.

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Mike A.
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Mike A. » September 15th, 2013, 8:34 am

The Pope was an idiot and Jesus committed suicide.

You can learn a whole bunch if you keep your eyes and mind open, I suppose.

But back to euthanasia... It seems to me fear is a root issue when discussing all things euthanasia. I've known people so fearful of death - that they could actually die - that any mention of the end points of life are harshly and angrily met. I wonder if such of a vision is a commentary on self awareness or ego, or simply fear? Fear of being wrong.

In truth, euthanasia requires trust, perhaps even love. Unfortunately it is discussed much as six blind men describing an elephant. The Buddha - 'O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim For preacher and monk the honored name! For, quarreling, each to his view they cling. Such folk see only one side of a thing.'

It is later than it was early. Only one full mug of strong black coffee ingested. The second, two gulps down.
"I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin."
Hondo [played by John Wayne in the title role]

Jklint
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Jklint » September 15th, 2013, 12:33 pm

Seriously contemplating Euthanasia requires that there is a steady and irrevocable erosion of the life impulse. The question which precedes the possibility is whether the future is still a desired commodity or should life be finalized based on current circumstances. It's a kind of existential accounting with a debit and credit side to one's personal ledger.

So is euthanasia good or bad. It's good and eminently civilized when justified would be my reply.

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Mike A.
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Mike A. » September 15th, 2013, 1:20 pm

"Seriously contemplating Euthanasia requires that there is a steady and irrevocable erosion of the life impulse. The question which precedes the possibility is whether the future is still a desired commodity or should life be finalized based on current circumstances. It's a kind of existential accounting with a debit and credit side to one's personal ledger.

So is euthanasia good or bad. It's good and eminently civilized when justified would be my reply." - Jklint » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:33 am

Interesting. One might argue that [a personal] contemplation requires an objective assessment of the status and prognosis of one's life, perhaps in the context of one aspect such as the steady or irrevocable deterioration of one's quality of life.

Splitting a hair, I'm not sure one's life is really a commodity. I do think it wise for the individual - any individual - to consider one's state and future. Practice being old, perhaps. And a debit and credit, or asset and liability approach to a continual evaluation of one's state - if not obsessive [an opinion] - can be an objective way way to look at one's future.

To live or die? To live in health or pain? To live alert or less so? Degrees of pain? Degrees of alertness? Is a vegetable a human being? What is life? What is to be human?

Another hair to split... The core issue remains: when is euthanasia justified? Who justifies? The individual or society? Is society well equipped to make such a decision for an 'incapacitated' individual, and what constitutes 'incapacitation''?

Dimensions of an issue... Perhaps more coffee will help.
"I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin."
Hondo [played by John Wayne in the title role]

Jklint
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Jklint » September 15th, 2013, 3:03 pm

We continue to split hairs only because we can't refrain from being absurdly complex about it. Euthanasia, suicide - especially the latter - are profoundly existential decisions which do not or should not contend with philosophies or legalities of any kind. What would all that mean to me when seriously contemplating that probability upon which no others follow? A rhetorical question only!

Stormcloud
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Stormcloud » September 16th, 2013, 6:46 am

My empathy is with you BadgerBob and you make alot of sense MikeA and thank you for a good laugh :D jklint. Perhaps we can laugh ourselves to death? If you tell people you have had enough of this insane world and want out they think you are a nutter - they are probably right. If you can hold your head whilst all else has lost theirs.....!!!

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Mike A.
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Mike A. » September 16th, 2013, 7:53 am

Rudyard Kipling. Ah yes. "If."

I was going for a pre-op interview, and one of the questions was 'Have you ever contemplated suicide?' I said "sure. haven't you?" Not the right answer, I guess. Apparently, if you answer "yes" you have to be watched as unbalanced or unhinged, and the answer is a flag of some kind. I don't understand the question, really. I presume that an active mind used by a rational individual considers and thinks through many life scenarios. We learn from the experiences we are confronted by, and the learned lessons fashion opinions or positions.

Euthanasia might be defined as a mercy killing, and might be considered an act of putting to death a person painlessly or by being allowed to die by withholding extreme medical measures, a person or animal suffering from an incurable, especially a painful, disease or condition - painless death.

Such a definition seems to imply that the individual is not a part of the decision-making process. Euthanasia - differentiated from suicide - seems to set the stage for others or society to determine what is/are the conditions falling under the cover of mercy.

If a living will, complete with health care proxy, arranged in the clear light of sanity by a person looking to the end game of life sets a definition for end of life care, who is better equipped to determine the limits of that care and what triggers 'mercy?'

So, if one has the right to life, liberty and he pursuit of happiness, then one should have the liberty to determine when happiness is no longer achievable, and the right to dictate how to live or not. Not very elegant. Hmmm...

If I have the right to life, do I not also have the right to death. If so, society is haggling over the right of the individual to make personal decisions. Need more coffee.
"I wouldn't touch that dog, son. He don't take to pettin."
Hondo [played by John Wayne in the title role]

Stormcloud
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Re: Euthanasia- Good or bad?

Post by Stormcloud » September 16th, 2013, 9:34 am

Enjoy that cup of coffee, Mike. It seems we have a population that loses itself in words and have lost sight of what the words are implying. Solutions are o so simple - grasped only by simple minds.

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