Existence and afterlife probability

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Fanman
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Fanman »

Grunth,
Apparently it is thought that color arrangements in auras can tell the health and well being of a person. If this is true then I imagine it would take a very long time to study (by possibly checking the health of people in the usual way and then making comparisons over many studied subjects).
I think that anything that auras can tell us about the health and well-being of a person is anecdotal. There may be cases where aura healing is effective, but this may be a matter of coincidence, rather than determination. Until there's a wealth of empirical evidence for the existence of auras, aura healing and other such nomenclature related to the existence and maintenance of auras, I think that they remain in the field of metaphysics. That's why I find it fascinating that you actually saw them.

That said, I think that there's some credence to the concept / idea of "healing one's energies" as when I used to practice guided meditation, I found that any stresses that I was feeling dissipated, leaving me feeling calm and relaxed. This, I think, could be described anecdotally as "healing one's energies" and I think that physiological analysis of the body in states prior to and post guided meditation would support this. Hence, blending (hopefully not conflating :) ) the metaphysics and physics (or chemistry) of the phenomenon.

I feel this aspect goes further than the profoundness of meditation, as there are numerous stress relieving techniques that can be said to "heal / calm the energies" of a person. Like drinking certain types of tea, eating certain herbs and there's evidence that exercise has holistic (physical, psychological and emotional) benefits. With a view towards ontology, I think it depends upon whether a person is perceived as *only* being a biomechanical machine, or if there are different levels of (unseen) subtlety which comprise us - as to whether such things as auras exist.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Grunth
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Grunth »

Fanman wrote:Grunth,
Apparently it is thought that color arrangements in auras can tell the health and well being of a person. If this is true then I imagine it would take a very long time to study (by possibly checking the health of people in the usual way and then making comparisons over many studied subjects).
I think that anything that auras can tell us about the health and well-being of a person is anecdotal. There may be cases where aura healing is effective, but this may be a matter of coincidence, rather than determination. Until there's a wealth of empirical evidence for the existence of auras, aura healing and other such nomenclature related to the existence and maintenance of auras, I think that they remain in the field of metaphysics. That's why I find it fascinating that you actually saw them.

That said, I think that there's some credence to the concept / idea of "healing one's energies" as when I used to practice guided meditation, I found that any stresses that I was feeling dissipated, leaving me feeling calm and relaxed. This, I think, could be described anecdotally as "healing one's energies" and I think that physiological analysis of the body in states prior to and post guided meditation would support this. Hence, blending (hopefully not conflating :) ) the metaphysics and physics (or chemistry) of the phenomenon.

I feel this aspect goes further than the profoundness of meditation, as there are numerous stress relieving techniques that can be said to "heal / calm the energies" of a person. Like drinking certain types of tea, eating certain herbs and there's evidence that exercise has holistic (physical, psychological and emotional) benefits. With a view towards ontology, I think it depends upon whether a person is perceived as *only* being a biomechanical machine, or if there are different levels of (unseen) subtlety which comprise us - as to whether such things as auras exist.
This 'biochemical machine', by definition, is limited to what it can 'see' due to it's machinery. Under usual conditions what this 'biochemical machine' sees of itself is limited to those usual conditions. However, conditions sometimes alter.

Also, memory plays a major part in what is seen or not seen. You may have heard the anecdote of natives, of some land or other, not being able to see sailing ships out at sea. The story goes that sailing ships were never an experience of this whole culture so memory was not helping, in this instance, to put a picture together of sailing ship shapes on the sea. Then the respected witch-doctor type began to notice the altered pattern of waves on the beach and from that was perplexed enough to take greater notice as to these wave pattern's cause eventually, therefore, seeing the ships.

So you have to look for signs of an aura. This is why I gave you an exercise for noticing slight traces around one's fingers when held up to a clear blue sky but away from the direction of the sun. You will see it, but only as a gloopy (as it moves to keep up with your slowly moving hand) glow of maybe 5mm wide perimeter around fingers. Once you locate this, you see, the sighting becomes memorized and you may eventually notice more dramatic aura displays at any given moment without having to go look for them.

There will be no need for you to keep saying this "That's why I find it fascinating that you actually saw them". It isn't fascinating to me. Well, no more than many other 'usual' spectacles.

With this simple exercise I eventually, this time without trying, sometimes saw colorful auras of up to around 12 ft to 20 ft. But the light conditions seemed to need to be right. Anyway, as I lost interest (because, in the end it is just more stuff to look at or not. It's not like they improved my stereo sound system. You know, practical things) auras faded into memory.
Platos stepchild
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Platos stepchild »

By afterlife, I assume we're talking about what happens when we draw our last breath. According to the Christian narrative, we have a soul which survives that last breath, and is either punished or rewarded in the afterlife. Certain Buddhist schools, though imagine we lose our distinctiveness, the same as a drop of water reuniting with the ocean; and, we'll just dissolve into an undifferentiated wholeness. The neo-Platonic philosopher, Plotinus believed that, when he died the divine within him would rise and greet the universal divine. But, still others have believed it'll be like the old dog named Rover who, when he died he died all over.

Will we face divine judgment; will we be absorbed into an unimaginable suchness; or, will we just rot? A more pointed question is, how to assess the relevant probabilities. If we do face impending judgment, then we need to know what the judge wants from us. The expectations of this judge'd naturally lead us to adapt a certain moral code. This code would likely be strict, and even self-deprecating. On the other hand, regardless whether we're absorbed, or rot, we'd want to live robust and fulfilling lives, because life'd then be a gift meant to be enjoyed.

The problem is, there's no way to assess the relevant probabilities. Even if we make Pascal's wager, and live as though there is a judgmental God, how do we know which version to appease? If we guess wrong, then we're screwed. I believe that, no matter how we choose to understand the afterlife, we'll be plagued with an underlying angst. We'll forever be contemplating the if's, because guessing wrong carries a terrible cost. And, even if we decide that pleasure in this life is the highest good, we'll find that pleasure becomes ever more frenzied the closer we come to drawing our last breath.

Personally, I don't know what to believe. I'm inclined towards hedonism; but, for me, pleasure blends seamlessly into cruelty. This can't become a universal ethos, however with everyone hurting everyone else. We must live by a moral code, whether or not administered by a cosmic judge. Maybe this means we should accede to belief in God, however we choose to understand Him. But, wouldn't this also mean we'd need to pretend there's a heaven? Hence the angst. The one thing I'm sure of is, the price we pay for our humanity is an unrelenting uncertainty about our last breath. Yeah; it sucks.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Sy Borg »

Platos stepchild wrote:Personally, I don't know what to believe. I'm inclined towards hedonism; but, for me, pleasure blends seamlessly into cruelty.
Agree. I enjoy the honesty and perceptiveness here and can relate to what you say. Cruelty is shockingly easy to fall into because when someone/thing interferes with our flow they can become objectified, becoming "impediments" rather than beings with interests as valid as our own. No one's perfect, and we can only aim towards improvement.
Platos stepchild wrote:This can't become a universal ethos, however with everyone hurting everyone else. We must live by a moral code, whether or not administered by a cosmic judge. Maybe this means we should accede to belief in God, however we choose to understand Him. But, wouldn't this also mean we'd need to pretend there's a heaven? Hence the angst. The one thing I'm sure of is, the price we pay for our humanity is an unrelenting uncertainty about our last breath. Yeah; it sucks.
It doesn't make sense to put aside so much subsequent learning to embrace ancient doctrines. The morality lessons of the famous religious texts were absorbed and learned long ago - basically exhortations to be civilised and not behave like wild animals. The fact is, as you say, we simply do not know what happens. There are some clues, but they are not "proved" and far from universally accepted.

My guess is that our sensory limitations and multi-layered existential situations confuse us. You are not just "you". You are also an entire world for your trillions of microbes and cells (and many of them will play home for benign viruses). You are also a portion of numerous connected groups - family, friends/peers, workmates, subculture, city, region, nation, species, life itself, the entire world, the solar system, the galaxy and so forth. So I expect that what happens during the state transition of the body will be a surprise for us all.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Platos stepchild
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Platos stepchild »

Greta wrote:
Plato's stepchild wrote:Personally, I don't know what to believe. I'm inclined towards hedonism; but, for me, pleasure blends seamlessly into cruelty.
Agree. I enjoy the honesty and perceptiveness here and can relate to what you say. Cruelty is shockingly easy to fall into because when someone/thing interferes with our flow they can become objectified, becoming "impediments" rather than beings with interests as valid as our own. No one's perfect, and we can only aim towards improvement.
Plato's stepchild wrote:This can't become a universal ethos, however with everyone hurting everyone else. We must live by a moral code, whether or not administered by a cosmic judge. Maybe this means we should accede to belief in God, however we choose to understand Him. But, wouldn't this also mean we'd need to pretend there's a heaven? Hence the angst. The one thing I'm sure of is, the price we pay for our humanity is an unrelenting uncertainty about our last breath. Yeah; it sucks.
It doesn't make sense to put aside so much subsequent learning to embrace ancient doctrines. The morality lessons of the famous religious texts were absorbed and learned long ago - basically exhortations to be civilised and not behave like wild animals. The fact is, as you say, we simply do not know what happens. There are some clues, but they are not "proved" and far from universally accepted.

My guess is that our sensory limitations and multi-layered existential situations confuse us. You are not just "you". You are also an entire world for your trillions of microbes and cells (and many of them will play home for benign viruses). You are also a portion of numerous connected groups - family, friends/peers, workmates, subculture, city, region, nation, species, life itself, the entire world, the solar system, the galaxy and so forth. So I expect that what happens during the state transition of the body will be a surprise for us all.
You're right: you are always more (and less) than you appear to be. There are just too many ensembles-of-me for me to even know which one I'm talking about. So, when I said that (for me) pleasure blends seamlessly into cruelty, I'm wondering which me is involved. To say that I am cruel is irreducibly complex and ambiguous. If I'm brutally honest, and admit that cruelty is my highest pleasure, the simplicity of my honesty immediately gets lost. If I were to believe in an afterlife, which me gets to live it? Moreover, if there is a heaven, will it be an orgy of cruelty? After all, it is my highest pleasure. And, if there's a hell, which me suffers, and will that me become the brunt of the cruelty I have enjoyed?

Two houses, side-by-side are in the direct path of an impending tornado. One house is obliterated, while the other is virtually unscathed; but, why? This is what insurance underwriters call an act-of-God. Two people are stalked by a serial killer; both are in equal danger. One of them is brutally attacked, while the other remains safe. It seems to me that this kind of honesty is a poignant reminder of how precarious, of just how scary life is. Our daily survival is an act-of-God. I'm frankly surprised that more people aren't cruel, because cruelty so clearly mimics our daily survival. As is true of life, a connoisseur-of-cruelty is never indiscriminately cruel; the pleasure is heightened by a neat, surgical rage against some unwary lamb.

I am more, and I am less than I appear to be. The same must therefore be true of all my experiences, including the pleasure I get from being cruel. I believe the logic is sound; but, I don't know how to process such a devastating truth. Cruelty just seems so immediate, and so personal. Yet, I'm somehow sharing this immediate and personal experience with a myriad-of-ensembles of me! This cheapens any hope (or dread) I might have of surviving death. I don't even want to be a drop-in-the-ocean, because there's absolutely no difference between a drop, and being me. It's all one-and-the-same cluster-****. Basically if I can't own the intimacy of my pleasures in life I don't want to own them in some after-life.
Belinda
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Belinda »

Platos stepchild and Greta, the archetypes of Dionysus and Apollo well personify the dichotomy between pleasure-cruelty on one hand and control-authority on the other.

I envisage a continuum within which most people are somewhere in the centre, balanced between the two extremes of Dionysus and Apollo.


If I apply the dionysian /apollonian model to forms of political regime it seems to me that the largely apollonian regime will not be self sustaining without a huge burden of policing and oppression. On the other hand anarchy results in cruelty and collapse of society. Again, moderation is the key.

This world has plenty of cognitive dissonance and uncertainty. However Julian of Norwich who had what in modern terms would be a near death experience:


“But Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that is needed by me, answered with these words and said: ‘It was necessary that there should be sin; but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.'

“These words were said most tenderly, showing no manner of blame to me nor to any who shall be saved.”


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Grunth
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Grunth »

Platos stepchild wrote: The one thing I'm sure of is, the price we pay for our humanity is an unrelenting uncertainty about our last breath.
'Last' sound fairly certain.
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Rr6
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Rr6 »

Spirit-2 = physical/energy

INspirited = our first inspiration of air/oxygen.

Outspirited/Exspirate = breathing out.

Death is final i.e. r6 does not live again, except in some radical scenario that involve and eternally existent Universe, wherein, we can say there is the possibility that, the same scenarios of reality we find ourselves in now, may possible happen again, provided they do not violate our finite set of cosmic law/principle.

There exists no infinite set of occupied space that infers anything is possible.

There exists a finite set of cosmic laws/principles ergo possiblities are existent only if they do not violate those laws/principle.

Ex there exists five and only five possible regular/symmetrical polyhedral of Universe. Those who believe we live in infinite, occupied space Universe, or no cosmic laws or infinite set of cosmic laws need to get over it. imho

No unicorns are coming to save humanity from itself. imho

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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