What do we lose when we believe?

[Whitedragon]

It was just an example,

an example using your assumption about my state of mind

and you did come across a being annoyed.

your inference
thus: projection

I think you're trying to back away now, because you've said some other stuff too.

I've answered every question directed at me - and several that were not directly to me - as clearly, accurately and succinctly as I can.

In the end it doesn't matter who meant what,

Doesn't it? Then why are we taking the trouble to articulate what we mean?

but just for curiosity, what did you mean and how did you feel?

Is that still unclear?
In my internet experience, when the very first words one poster address to another, particularly one whose views are obviously at odds with their own, are: "my friend",
what generally follows is condescending or lecturing or hectoring. I prefer to set the record straight at the outset, rather than let them think I didn't notice.

Certainly someone as intelligent as you should have known that it was just a form of expression.

It's a form of expression I happen not to like.

The way I see it, you made a big deal about it. I merely used your alleged outburst as an example to get an on-topic point across.

my bold; your emotional interpretation

So, I'm trying to be nice here, mate, you don't have to be my friend, but I think I might have something to offer. The choice is yours -

It's nicer to be asked than to be told.
I take friendship seriously. It's not something that happens with a click on an icon; it grows with care.

Look, man, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning, or created room for misunderstanding and you're right, opposing parties often do use that word to be condescending, I sometimes forget we don't always live in a friendly world.

So let me ask you outright: Do you want to be friends? I really don't like insulting strangers, because in my belief only fools do that. So, if I behaved foolishly or irritated you, I apologize. The way I see it, we share some interests, philosophy being one obvious interest, we both like Shakespeare and Star Trek. What else do you like? Maybe we could make up for our misunderstanding by really becoming friends, or at least acquaintances. If you want to chat you can private message me.

[Steve3007]

Whitedragon:

Okay, perhaps you can't TELL someone how to feel, but you can introduce them to another. I guess what people mean by putting up that bumper sticker of hugging their children is to say; we take life for granted? Indeed life is a big rush of things and we tend to live past one another; if we don't have time for our own family, how could we have time for strangers?

Yes, ok, fair point. I will spend some more time with my kids and stop telling strangers on the internet that I love my kids. ("Daddy, will you play with me?", "Shut up Steve3007 jnr, I'm busy telling a stranger on the other side of the world how much I love you.")

If I say I want to introduce you to a guy and you don't feel like doing that, that means we have some preconceptions about the matter.

Isn't meeting new people a lot like having faith? Sometimes we avoid someone for years, because something about the persons pushes us away, but when we're put together by some fluke circumstance and we get to know the guy or girl, we start liking them and we can't imagine why we didn't give it a chance sooner ... or sometimes the opposite happens ... it's a gamble.

I guess. Except that normally when this happens, you actually meet the person, maybe shake hands and get to know each other over a G&T. That's perhaps the snag with this whole God thing. You say "I'd like you to meet someone. I think it will be a great experience for you both" so I say "OK. Where is he?" and you say "Oh, you can't see him. He's a disembodied consciousness that created, and possibly is, the universe. And he doesn't drink."

It's just not relatable. As I say, I guess that's why they made Jesus. You can shake his hand and chat over a G&T.

Alias:

I don't mind when people talk about me as if i weren't present.

Who said that? Just kidding.

I do become irate when they attack innocent, helpless hedgehogs with their buts.

Good. Perhaps you are not such a bad person after all then.

[Whitedragon]

Hey, Steve2007,

Well, I can get why meeting God would be different from meeting a person. I think I quite fail to express the power of narrative/story. If your soul, the world and the Word of God is a story, then I guess you meet God, by familiarizing yourself with scripture. The God idea is in the book, if it's in your mind, it changes you/your soul/your story ... the New Word/idea manifests inside you and you employ it in the world, thus changing the soul of the world. But by having the idea in you, the story outside/the world seems different. You act differently and you change the world bit by bit and eventually that comes back to you in all forms.

Can we be so conceited to think that all our ideas come from us? Where were our ideas, evolutionary speaking a trillion years ago? In what form? In what energy? We cannot escape that we and the environment is connected we are indeed one. What we change inside in some way we change outside. If our ideas predate us, who's ideas are they?

[Steve3007]

Interesting questions and I will deal with them. But, ironically, I have to dash now because I'm going out to a meeting of a local philosophy discussion group tonight in a local pub. Later.

[Chili]

Hey, Steve2007,

Well, I can get why meeting God would be different from meeting a person. I think I quite fail to express the power of narrative/story. If your soul, the world and the Word of God is a story, then I guess you meet God, by familiarizing yourself with scripture. The God idea is in the book, if it's in your mind, it changes you/your soul/your story ... the New Word/idea manifests inside you and you employ it in the world, thus changing the soul of the world. But by having the idea in you, the story outside/the world seems different. You act differently and you change the world bit by bit and eventually that comes back to you in all forms.

Can we be so conceited to think that all our ideas come from us? Where were our ideas, evolutionary speaking a trillion years ago? In what form? In what energy? We cannot escape that we and the environment is connected we are indeed one. What we change inside in some way we change outside. If our ideas predate us, who's ideas are they?

Is this form of God for everyone? Other traditions relate very differently to God / gods. Is thee something special about "The Bible" in your opinion?

-- Updated October 19th, 2017, 2:07 pm to add the following --

edit s/b "is there something ..."

[Whitedragon]

Hey, Steve2007,

Well, I can get why meeting God would be different from meeting a person. I think I quite fail to express the power of narrative/story. If your soul, the world and the Word of God is a story, then I guess you meet God, by familiarizing yourself with scripture. The God idea is in the book, if it's in your mind, it changes you/your soul/your story ... the New Word/idea manifests inside you and you employ it in the world, thus changing the soul of the world. But by having the idea in you, the story outside/the world seems different. You act differently and you change the world bit by bit and eventually that comes back to you in all forms.

Can we be so conceited to think that all our ideas come from us? Where were our ideas, evolutionary speaking a trillion years ago? In what form? In what energy? We cannot escape that we and the environment is connected we are indeed one. What we change inside in some way we change outside. If our ideas predate us, who's ideas are they?

Is this form of God for everyone? Other traditions relate very differently to God / gods. Is thee something special about "The Bible" in your opinion?

-- Updated October 19th, 2017, 2:07 pm to add the following --

edit s/b "is there something ..."

Like I've said, I've studied some other religions and use their wisdom in my everyday life as much as I do Christianity.

But again, it's about the story. I like certain things in the Bible more than I do others, I'll be honest, but then, like I said, it's a book witch recorded not only guidelines, but also human error.

Some religions seem cold and selfish to me - I like the story of a God that sacrificed something of himself to that us, whatever that may be - like I say I don't have all the answers. Some things are difficult to convey and we have to use metaphor --- we also can't always know what is metaphor and what's not.

I have a question before I continue: are we rejecting God and the Bible, just because it is strange? Cause there is a lot of strange things in life, which turn out to be helpful in the end.

[Chili]

Certainly in America & the west generally, the Bible & its God are certainly *less* strange than what is found in other forms of spirituality & religion.

I mean it is everywhere, especially at Christmas, let's say.

[Whitedragon]

Hey, Chilli,

But why do you reject it? Because it's strange? Stories change our lives sometimes, no matter whether they are real or not - the message is real. Certainly we all use metaphor or analogy in our speech, perhaps every day. I mean, is this what is strange? Why do we reject it? I know people are assh*l*s; they can very easily take an idea and use it for their selfish desires and I won't blame people if they reject God because of that.

Sometimes I think people locked God in church and went off with the story to break the world instead of mending it - but that doesn't mean God is bad.

[Chili]

Your answers keep suggesting that you find other religions too strange to discuss here. There is a tacit (or often explicit) religion = God = Bible.

[Whitedragon]

Your answers keep suggesting that you find other religions too strange to discuss here. There is a tacit (or often explicit) religion = God = Bible.

I'm open to discuss other religions, but I'll leaf that for tomorrow, if you don't mind. You can decide what you want to discuss, but you should know I don't have authority on all the religions. See you tomorrow and thanks for the chat.

[Alias]

Look, man, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning,

No problem. I'm not the one who made an issue of it or accused anyone of attempted decapitation by dentiture.
Whatever your, or any idle bystanders', impression may be, I am not emotionally invested.

So let me ask you outright: Do you want to be friends?

Non-combatants seems a more appropriate starting point.

... we both like Shakespeare and Star Trek. What else do you like?

whiskers on mittens, snowflakes on kittens, moonshine and wet strolls...
Name two actors who look(ed) good in the rain. Gene Kelly and Grace Kelly.
No hurry.

-- Updated October 19th, 2017, 2:57 pm to add the following --

Things one hates are often more to the point.
I nominate that god-awful Ferris wheel messing up every cinematic approach to London.

-- Updated October 19th, 2017, 4:04 pm to add the following --

Some religions seem cold and selfish to me

Seven pages, and you have made no specific reference to what you dislike in another religion or god.
Which ones seem selfish, in what ways? A comparison of two stories on the same theme from two different traditions would be helpful.

I like the story of a God that sacrificed something of himself

What of himself did he sacrifice, to whom, and on what rationale?
I've asked you this before: Why was any sacrifice required in the first place?
What purpose does sacrifice serve as a religious practice?

as I say I don't have all the answers.

What are some of the questions?

Some things are difficult to convey and we have to use metaphor --- we also can't always know what is metaphor and what's not.

We do have a sizeable world literature to convey pretty much everything humans have ever had to say to one another.
Why add the sacred texts?

are we rejecting God and the Bible, just because it is strange?

For my part: No. They are not strange - they're all too familiar.
They are also violent, bigoted, short-sighted, morally reprehensible, outdated, childish and outlandish.
None of which would trouble me, if the people who thump that book didn't thump it other on people's heads.

[Steve3007]

Whitedragon:

Well, I can get why meeting God would be different from meeting a person. I think I quite fail to express the power of narrative/story. If your soul, the world and the Word of God is a story, then I guess you meet God, by familiarizing yourself with scripture. The God idea is in the book, if it's in your mind, it changes you/your soul/your story ... the New Word/idea manifests inside you and you employ it in the world, thus changing the soul of the world. But by having the idea in you, the story outside/the world seems different. You act differently and you change the world bit by bit and eventually that comes back to you in all forms.

Mmmm. Ok. I guess when you say "scripture" and "the book" you're talking about the Bible. I've read little bits of it. Maybe 1%. Who knows, maybe if I read it all, and familiarized myself with it, it might cause this massive change that you speak of. But it seems unlikely, and there are many, many other great works of literature competing with it for my attention. I'm still struggling through Proust's "In Search of Lost Time". (Actually, I'm not. I stopped years ago. But I mean to start again one day.)

So I suppose that's one answer to your question: "What do I lose?". Answer: Lots of time that I could be spending reading other potentially life changing works of world literature. It's a competitive world out there. There are lots of ideas promising that their U.S.P. is that they'll change your life. (Alain de Botton told me that Proust would change my life. He even wrote a book about it.)

Can we be so conceited to think that all our ideas come from us?

If by "us" you mean the whole human race, inspired by the rest of the living world and the universe, then yes. I'm afraid so. Guilty as charged.

Where were our ideas, evolutionary speaking a trillion years ago?

I don't know. But if I had to guess I'd say that they didn't exist.

We cannot escape that we and the environment is connected we are indeed one. What we change inside in some way we change outside.

Yes, I agree with this part. Well, the first sentence anyway.

If our ideas predate us, who's ideas are they?

I don't see any reason to think that they pre-date us. Sorry.

[Alias]

WD -- If our ideas predate us, who's ideas are they?
S 007 -- I don't see any reason to think that they pre-date us. Sorry.

Being of the Babyboomers and 60's generation, I've grown accustomed to appropriating/ being credited with just about every idea from free love to rockabilly to teleportation, but even I admit that we were predated in the invention of electricity, eugenics and bubble gum.
Human thought is transmitted through oral tradition, painting and carving, architecture, legal codes, maps, farming methods, tools and crafts, etiquette, cuisine, social and written literature, as well as the social structures of human groups.
I doubt anyone can point to a truly novel idea: our ideas evolved with us through history and prehistory, and before that, the long, slow, convoluted processes of change that turned an ape into a hominid. You can trace many modern ideas back through monkey cultures, until you lose the thread between arboreal and land-dwelling omnivores.
I very much doubt any individual can claim 100% clear copyright to any idea, though some notable intellectual contributors are credited with the authorship of ideas in the past 3000 years.

-- Updated October 19th, 2017, 5:51 pm to add the following --

Psst, Steve? Genesis and Exodus are way more entertaining than Proust. So are some of the prophets' books and definitely Solomon's love poetry and Ecclesiastes' observations. It's no accident that more novel, song and poem titles come from those books than anywhere else except Shakespeare and Yeats.

[Steve3007]

Alias:

I'm not sure what you're saying there. Are you saying that there are ideas that predate the 1960's predate the human race, predate all life on Earth or predate the Universe?

-- Updated Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:55 pm to add the following --

Psst, Steve? Genesis and Exodus are way more entertaining than Proust. So are some of the prophets' books and definitely Solomon's love poetry and Ecclesiastes' observations. It's no accident that more novel, song and poem titles come from those books than anywhere else except Shakespeare and Yeats.

Yes, I don't doubt the cultural impact of the Bible. Famously, most popular expressions seem to come either from Shakespeare or the Bible. I'm much more familiar with Shakespeare though.

All I'm saying is that there is an absolutely vast quantity of culture and literature in the world (Proust was just an example that sprang to mind) and it all has to compete for our limited time.

[Alias]

Alias:

I'm not sure what you're saying there. Are you saying that there are ideas that predate the 1960's predate the human race,

I stopped here.

predate all life on Earth

the Q Continuum stop here.

or predate the Universe?

Doctor Who may stop here; I'm not sure.

Yes, I don't doubt the cultural impact of the Bible.

I only meant more fun reading, if you're ever snowed in a hotel room with a Bible and a copy of Remembrance. I tried reading Proust - admittedly in translation - and found him incredibly boring. At least Tolstoy waxed long-winded about a lot more action.

All I'm saying is that there is an absolutely vast quantity of culture and literature in the world (Proust was just an example that sprang to mind) and it all has to compete for our limited time.

I know. Mentioned loss of time earlier. Just saying, don't waste it on books you ought to read.
I fully intend to die without ever again opening Ulysses or Wings of the Dove.