Is faith a good way to believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi »

3uGH7D4MLj wrote: January 9th, 2018, 9:45 pm
Belindi wrote: December 30th, 2017, 7:35 amIf I had the full and passionate belief which the myth requires it would either be because I needed solace, or because the myth would be all that was left to inspire me to keep going. Pragmatic reasons for allowing my emotions to steer my beliefs.

Transcendent radical ethics requires a myth more suited to modern people. I'd like to see that happening. The old myth of Christ , although it can be interpreted as an allegory, is not the genre of story that can be popularised, largely because of the insistence of religious people that the history is the same as the myth.
That's the problem, and truth is such a petty requirement to put on myth, full of archetypes and symbolism, ambiguity and beauty. Isn't myth bigger than truth? It's a kind of super truth, not merely truth in a journalistic sense.

Is it possible for a person with a materialist worldview, say, a scientist, to be a devoted follower of the myth of Jesus, or any other spiritual path? Can you imagine having such a change in outlook? There are people who do just this, in spite of the problems that you cite. I think that mythology was always intended to have this kind of role, but we've lost the knack of seeing myth's function and power. mmm?
I am sorry you were disappointed with my reply 3uGH7D4MLJ so I will write another reply paying more attention to your actual questions.

I think it's possible for a scientist to be a devoted follower of the myth of Christ (not the myth of Jesus) only if the scientist is able and willing to interpret the myth as allegory. I think that any sort of substance monist ,(materialist, idealist, or dual aspect monist) can use myths and other symbolist media such as symbolist art or poetry for explaining the human condition .
I agree that myth is bigger than rational and empirical truths in that myth can not only explain but it can also guide and embrace the soul.

We need tertiary education free for all so that all people can apply the lessons in the Humanities to their lives. I believe that science should be taught at universities against a background of the arts and history of ideas. It is very important that we can all sort out bad myths from righteous myths. For this reason history of ideas should also figure in the scientist's education.

I hope I have answered you fully enough, and that you will respond.
User avatar
3uGH7D4MLj
Posts: 934
Joined: January 4th, 2013, 3:39 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj »

Yes, well, now I have to go look up monism. Thanks for giving me some of my badly expressed points. But the thought just struck me, that one can join the catholic church because one likes the music. The worldview doesn't have to be that important. One can just as easily join for the love of Christ. It is possible for a modern person to entertain two different, even mutually excluding conceptual frameworks at once. So a rational materialist can attend, take the communion, and try to partake in Christ's pain, encourage his kids to model their thoughts on self sacrifice and humility.

And enjoy the advantages of the community, etc., without necessarily buying into the savior/afterlife business. I even think there is a kind of deep pleasure from taking some rapture and passion from the story if you could take it that far, like falling in love.

Simone Weil is in my mind when I consider these things and I think a religion of radical ethics, transcendent radical ethics, could be possible, and it could partake of the passion of Christ. After all, human rights is really the only issue. Hm, I may be describing the Unitarians.
fair to say
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi »

I have thought of joining the RC Church because of the music and other benefits . I have held back because I'd have to get up early, and also I suspected that the RC homilies may be as platitudinous as the other religious sects. I'd do better with the Latin mass as I could not understand it.
User avatar
3uGH7D4MLj
Posts: 934
Joined: January 4th, 2013, 3:39 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj »

If I was to become a Catholic I would immediately seek out a Latin mass, absolutely.
fair to say
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by LuckyR »

3uGH7D4MLj wrote: January 19th, 2018, 12:10 pm If I was to become a Catholic I would immediately seek out a Latin mass, absolutely.
Makes total sense since it is, essentially theatre.

Sometime during the 1980s an Anglo-Catholic priest of the church said to me exactly that with regard to his Anglo-Catholic church service.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi »

I have a horrible feeling that I might possibly have deleted one of 3uGH7D4MLj's posts in error. I got into a muddle copying and pasting. Sorry, 3uGH.I recall that 3uGH's post was to the effect that he or she would like a service that allows one to concentrate on own thoughts and feelings.



I think I have been told that the Russian Orthodox Church service is about being with your own thoughts and feelings very much so. The holy ikons are about expressing feelings not about knowledge and beliefs.
User avatar
3uGH7D4MLj
Posts: 934
Joined: January 4th, 2013, 3:39 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj »

LuckyR wrote: January 19th, 2018, 2:42 pmMakes total sense since it is, essentially theatre.

Sometime during the 1980s an Anglo-Catholic priest of the church said to me exactly that with regard to his Anglo-Catholic church service.
What do you mean by that? That it isn't "true"? The stories of the church are literature which became myth, and mythology can have power beyond the truth.

Karen Armstrong is good on this point, that our expectation of journalistic truth is so strong that myth has no function in our society. Myth is simply not true, and so is worthless. This is a powerful message which a lot of us in the west have grown up with. I'm trying to change my thinking.
fair to say
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Belindi »

Actually it was I who reported what the Anglo-Catholic priest said to me personally. I had just informed him that a local Humanist had said so, and the priest was agreeing with the Humanist.

Karen Armstrong is excellent. I like "journalistic truth"! Nonetheless we all need to decide which are good myths and which bad. Some other myths are of historic or anthropological interest only.
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Fooloso4 »

3uGH7D4MLj:
Karen Armstrong is good on this point, that our expectation of journalistic truth is so strong that myth has no function in our society. Myth is simply not true, and so is worthless.
I do not think this is Armstrong’s position. Myth has always had a function in society, and still does. We misunderstand myths when we think in terms of the dichotomy truth or fact and fiction, but not all truths are factual truth or propositional truths. There are truths that may not be evident in the facts. As with other forms of art, myths show us a way of regarding or seeing something, they can inspire.
User avatar
3uGH7D4MLj
Posts: 934
Joined: January 4th, 2013, 3:39 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj »

Fooloso4 wrote: January 20th, 2018, 1:41 pm 3uGH7D4MLj:
Karen Armstrong is good on this point, that our expectation of journalistic truth is so strong that myth has no function in our society. Myth is simply not true, and so is worthless.
I do not think this is Armstrong’s position. Myth has always had a function in society, and still does. We misunderstand myths when we think in terms of the dichotomy truth or fact and fiction, but not all truths are factual truth or propositional truths. There are truths that may not be evident in the facts. As with other forms of art, myths show us a way of regarding or seeing something, they can inspire.
There may be a misunderstanding, I was a little too brief. Armstrong says that the sacred stories were never intended to be history or truth and that it is a mistake to treat them as such.

I got the idea from reading her that our society is out of touch with the function and uses of myth. We expect journalistic truth from myth, which isn't its function at all. The easiest example of this is the current definition of the word, which is simply "a false belief."
fair to say
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by Fooloso4 »

3uGH7D4MLj:
There may be a misunderstanding, I was a little too brief. Armstrong says that the sacred stories were never intended to be history or truth and that it is a mistake to treat them as such.

I got the idea from reading her that our society is out of touch with the function and uses of myth. We expect journalistic truth from myth, which isn't its function at all. The easiest example of this is the current definition of the word, which is simply "a false belief."
This sounds more like what I remember from reading Armstrong.
User avatar
3uGH7D4MLj
Posts: 934
Joined: January 4th, 2013, 3:39 pm

Re: Is faith a good way to believe?

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj »

Yah, my statement earlier was too strong.
fair to say
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021