Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Spectrum
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Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum » February 14th, 2018, 4:30 am

Can Islam be reformed?”
No, it can’t!

To reform Islam you have to first get rid of Muhammad and second get rid of the Quran.
You have to take out a great portion of that book which is violent. The rest is nonsense and absurdity. But this you can’t do, because you have no authority to do such a thing. Muhammad said that he has perfected his religion (Q. 5:3).
How can you improve something, which is perfect?
You can’t change the Quran.
You can’t reform it.

All you can do is to reinterpret and, for example pretend, “slay the unbelievers wherever you find them” means something else.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50116.htm
Here is a few links for reference;
There are hundreds of articles arguing for 'Why Islam cannot be reformed'.

Agree/Disagree?
Your views?
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Londoner
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Joined: March 8th, 2013, 12:46 pm

Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Londoner » February 14th, 2018, 5:30 am

So how is it that Muslims do not all agree with each other? Why are there different branches of Islam?

But, to cut this short, we know that you will deploy the 'no true Scotsman' argument and say that Muslims who do not conform to your stereotype are not true Muslims, and then we will back back to those interminable cut-and-paste posts.

Don't you ever get the urge to write about something different? Just for variety?

Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum » February 15th, 2018, 3:31 am

Londoner wrote:
February 14th, 2018, 5:30 am
So how is it that Muslims do not all agree with each other? Why are there different branches of Islam?

But, to cut this short, we know that you will deploy the 'no true Scotsman' argument and say that Muslims who do not conform to your stereotype are not true Muslims, and then we will back back to those interminable cut-and-paste posts.

Don't you ever get the urge to write about something different? Just for variety?
There are three main sects of Islam, i.e. Sunni, Shia and Khawarij.
Within each sect there are many schools.

The presence of many sects and each with many schools do not imply there are reformations of Islam.
While there may be difference in the interpretation of some verses, all the accepted doctrines of these sects and schools do not reform the central ethos of the Quran, especially their hatred for non-believers.

What is often touted as reformation and reformers are actually Muslim[s] who insist Islam is a religion of peace and they side-step certain evil laden verses or cherry picked certain verses to suit their interests.

Note the often used verse "2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion' by the moderates to portray Islam is a religion of peace.
But note the counter to the above;
https://eu0.proxysite.com/process.php?d ... &f=norefer

Verse 2:256 from the Quran is often quoted to prove what a tolerant religion Islam is. The verse (supposedly) reads in part, "Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clearly from error..."

The word "let" is not in the Arabic, so the verse is not an imperative. What it actually says is "there is no compulsion in religion..." It is a statement that true belief can't be forced. However, this is not to say that others can't be forced into an outward manifestation of faith, such as the pillars of Islam:
  • Allah's Apostle (Muhammad) said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally." Bukhari 8:387
Even within the same sura (chapter) of the Quran that verse 256 appears, Muslims are instructed to "fight with them (non-Muslims) until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah. (v. 2:193)" Apologists claim that this applied to the people of Mecca. They should also note that the Meccans were later forcibly converted.
...
Note the very next verse 2:257
  • 2:257 [Ali] Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They [non-believers] will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).
While 2:256 state 'no compulsion', the very next verse 2:257 is a condemnation of non-believers which send a subliminal message of compulsion, otherwise they will burn in Hell.

Thus the moderates who claimed to be 'reformers' [not real reformers] usually cherry-picked verses and do not take the whole context of the Quran into account.

Truer Muslim versus lesser Muslim:
For any one who claim to be a true Muslim, s/he has to comply with the words and intentions of Allah up to 100% or the best s/he can depending on their best ability.
What is wrong with this statement?
There are 6,236 verses in the Quran.
From my research it is noted the extremists on average comply with more of expectations within the 6,236 verses than the so-called moderates who cherry pick certain verses from the Quran.

For example, if a Muslim comply with 9:29 and fight/kill non-believers they are in fact following one more of the 6,236 verses in the Quran. This is one example of verses that are anti-non-Believers.
There are thousands of anti-non-Believers which are followed by certain groups of Muslims while the so-called moderates will avoid these verses.
Therefore a Muslim who adopt 1000 less verses of Allah would objectively be a lesser Muslim than a Muslim [a truer] who adopt those 1000 anti-non-Believers verses.

Note I have not stated the lesser Muslim are false Muslims.
It is very objectively clear, those who comply with more verses in the Quran [say 1000+] are definitely truer Muslims than those who comply less of the verses.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk » February 23rd, 2018, 4:48 am

Religions are made up. Successful religions are vague/undefined and open to many interpretations.
If something is both made up and open to interpretation then it is open to change.
I've said it to you before Spectrum but you can't have it both ways. Either it's made up and can therefore change to something else made up or its the true word of God and we should all be Muslim.

Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum » February 23rd, 2018, 5:59 am

Eduk wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 4:48 am
Religions are made up. Successful religions are vague/undefined and open to many interpretations.
If something is both made up and open to interpretation then it is open to change.
I've said it to you before Spectrum but you can't have it both ways. Either it's made up and can therefore change to something else made up or its the true word of God and we should all be Muslim.
You are using common sense and end up conflating various perspectives in this case. One cannot conflate common sense with God's sense.

1. Non-Islam Perspective:
Most non-believers-of-Islam [non-Muslims] will claim the religion of Islam was made up by Muhammad or a group of people and the Quran was written >50 years after the death of Muhammad and compiled as a book much later. As such in the case of Islam there was no real message from a real God.
In this case and view, since Islam was made up by humans, therefore it is open to change.

2. Islam's Perspective
Islam is represented by its core text, i.e. the Quran, i.e. Allah's words delivered to Muhammad via angel Gabriels and had remained unchanged since it was first communicated, memorized and written down later.
It is in God's words that the Quran is perfected and completed thus cannot be changed, i.e. immutable, therefore there is no room for it to be reformed.
Quran 5:3 [Pickthall]...
This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.
3. Muslims' Perspective
The views of Muslims are mixed.
In principle, since Allah dictated the Quran cannot be changed t is obvious fallible Muslims-as-followers cannot mess and change the all-powerful Allah's words and commands.
Some Muslims in facing the violent nature of God's words in the Quran claimed those evil elements in the Quran were time-based thus not applicable for the present condition. But this is clearly against Allah's words and thus will incur the wrath of God and end up in Hell.

From the Islam-Quran perspective all humans were born Muslims and non-Muslims must revert to be Muslims.

You can insist Islam can be reformed but you are not a Muslim.

Only Muslims can reform their own religion, but they cannot reform Islam because the Islam they believed in by its own inherent rule from God do not allow Islam to be reformed.

Another point is if anyone change a word or take out a verse from the Quran, then it is no more the Islam that was originally from Allah, thus a corrupted form of Islam.

This is where Islam cursed Christianity for changing God's original message. Thus
Allah in the Quran condemned the current Bible in existence as a corrupted version.

If Allah condemned Christians and Jews for changing the original message, then obviously Allah do not allow Muslims to change and reform their own Islam.

The above are the reasons Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk » February 23rd, 2018, 6:07 am

Another point is if anyone change a word or take out a verse from the Quran, then it is no more the Islam that was originally from Allah, thus a corrupted form of Islam.
No true Scotsman.
Only Muslims can reform their own religion, but they cannot reform Islam because the Islam they believed in by its own inherent rule from God do not allow Islam to be reformed.
Humans however are not immutable or infallible (as you point out). Humans could decide tomorrow that the Quran is an allegory. And they could change the Quran today and tomorrow say that they didn't. For example some Christians believe the bible to be immutable.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 23rd, 2018, 6:51 am

It seems to me what is meant by 'reformed' is key to the assertion. If we go by a common first meaning of reform - to put or change into an improved form or condition. Well, sure, Islam can be reformed. If Muslims treated the Koran as a product of potentially fallible humans, which is more common by Christians in relation to the Bible, Islam would be changed into an 'improved form or condition.' This does happen in many individual cases. There are assimilation type effects, where the views of immigrants, at least in later generations, shift to other styles of viewing sacred texts.

If we mean by reform that all the problems will be removed, well, no. If we mean that Islam will be fine, well, no. But one could certainly reform it. We can see already synchronous forms of Islam, some better than others. Some parts of Islam - in regions, in individuals, in groups, are better than others. They have already reformed. This does not mean they are not problem free.

Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum » February 23rd, 2018, 11:16 pm

Eduk wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 6:07 am
Another point is if anyone change a word or take out a verse from the Quran, then it is no more the Islam that was originally from Allah, thus a corrupted form of Islam.
No true Scotsman.
Only Muslims can reform their own religion, but they cannot reform Islam because the Islam they believed in by its own inherent rule from God do not allow Islam to be reformed.
Humans however are not immutable or infallible (as you point out). Humans could decide tomorrow that the Quran is an allegory. And they could change the Quran today and tomorrow say that they didn't. For example some Christians believe the bible to be immutable.
Note the critical point is this;

As Covenanted [Contractual]:
Original Quran from Allah = Eternal Life in Paradise

As specified in the Quran, to be a Muslim to earn eternal life in Paradise one has to enter into a contract [COVENANT -biʿahdi] with ALlah.
  • Quran 16:91 [Pickthall]
    Fulfil the covenant of Allah when ye have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration of them, and after ye have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.
The terms of the contract are specified in the Quran from Allah as delivered to Muhammad and kept intact in a book [memory] to the present.

Now if Muslims change the original terms of the to-be-Muslim contract, then they will not qualify for eternal life in paradise and other promises from Allah.

This is the point why Islam cannot be reformed as Muslims cannot change the immutable original terms of the contract where Allah promise them eternal life in Paradise and other promises.

Muslims and anyone can change the words and meaning in the Quran unilaterally by themselves without consensus from Allah but they are not a Muslim per se in the eyes of Allah via the intact Quran from Allah.

Christians has no problem with the original language and words in the NT because they are relying on divine doctrines in terms of principles rather that literally word for word.

Point is an original contract [Covenant] cannot be reformed if the immutable terms within the contract itself stated it cannot be reformed.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum » February 23rd, 2018, 11:28 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 6:51 am
It seems to me what is meant by 'reformed' is key to the assertion. If we go by a common first meaning of reform - to put or change into an improved form or condition. Well, sure, Islam can be reformed. If Muslims treated the Koran as a product of potentially fallible humans, which is more common by Christians in relation to the Bible, Islam would be changed into an 'improved form or condition.' This does happen in many individual cases. There are assimilation type effects, where the views of immigrants, at least in later generations, shift to other styles of viewing sacred texts.

If we mean by reform that all the problems will be removed, well, no. If we mean that Islam will be fine, well, no. But one could certainly reform it. We can see already synchronous forms of Islam, some better than others. Some parts of Islam - in regions, in individuals, in groups, are better than others. They have already reformed. This does not mean they are not problem free.
Note my reply to Eduk above.

Point is an original contract [Covenant] cannot be reformed if the immutable terms within the contract itself stated it cannot be reformed.

The whole Quran [core of Islam] encompass the full terms of the covenant to be entered with Allah.
When the Quran, example, permit the killing and oppression of non-Muslims, this term and provision of the covenant cannot be changed by any human being.

If the evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 million Muslims killed and oppressed non-Muslims as a divine duty to please God to gain greater assurance to paradise with eternal life, WHO IN THE WORLD can insist they are wrong [when Allah stated it is permissible]?

Islam per se cannot be reformed.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Burning ghost
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Burning ghost » February 24th, 2018, 12:03 am

Spectrum -

I wonder whether or not you can be reformed? Probably not.

Given that you've contradicted yourself elsewhere by saying both "It cannot be reformed" and then "maybe it cannot", you don't even believe your own position and are having a very obvious inner conflict. Maybe you are starting to realise the dogmatic mode you've adopted - ironic? Yes, but likely the very reason you'll never snap out of it because you're too emotionally invested in this now to back out without a huge, possibly shattering, effect upon your sense of self.

I'll know if you wake up. The indictor would be your quick and silent removal of yourself from these forums as you turn you view upside down.

I guess evil really does beget evil - look in the mirror and see that which you wish to dispose of my friend.
AKA badgerjelly

Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum » February 24th, 2018, 5:28 am

Burning ghost wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 12:03 am
Spectrum -

I wonder whether or not you can be reformed? Probably not.

Given that you've contradicted yourself elsewhere by saying both "It cannot be reformed" and then "maybe it cannot", you don't even believe your own position and are having a very obvious inner conflict. Maybe you are starting to realise the dogmatic mode you've adopted - ironic? Yes, but likely the very reason you'll never snap out of it because you're too emotionally invested in this now to back out without a huge, possibly shattering, effect upon your sense of self.

I'll know if you wake up. The indictor would be your quick and silent removal of yourself from these forums as you turn you view upside down.

I guess evil really does beget evil - look in the mirror and see that which you wish to dispose of my friend.
Not sure where you are pointing to?

I did not say 'maybe it cannot' - NEVER has such an idea in my mind at all.
What I did say is there are some Muslims who claimed they have or want to reform Islam, but that is only a claim and in their mind.

I have stated in principle, Islam per se cannot be reformed because the God of Islam commanded in the Quran, the God-sent Islam cannot be reformed.
Where did I go wrong on this?
I suggest you highlight point by point on what I have presented and you will see the correct picture.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk » February 24th, 2018, 5:37 am

So if Islam is reformed then it's not Islam. If that isn't no true scotsman then I don't know what is.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 24th, 2018, 7:17 am

Spectrum wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 11:28 pm
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 23rd, 2018, 6:51 am
It seems to me what is meant by 'reformed' is key to the assertion. If we go by a common first meaning of reform - to put or change into an improved form or condition. Well, sure, Islam can be reformed. If Muslims treated the Koran as a product of potentially fallible humans, which is more common by Christians in relation to the Bible, Islam would be changed into an 'improved form or condition.' This does happen in many individual cases. There are assimilation type effects, where the views of immigrants, at least in later generations, shift to other styles of viewing sacred texts.

If we mean by reform that all the problems will be removed, well, no. If we mean that Islam will be fine, well, no. But one could certainly reform it. We can see already synchronous forms of Islam, some better than others. Some parts of Islam - in regions, in individuals, in groups, are better than others. They have already reformed. This does not mean they are not problem free.
Note my reply to Eduk above.

Point is an original contract [Covenant] cannot be reformed if the immutable terms within the contract itself stated it cannot be reformed.

The whole Quran [core of Islam] encompass the full terms of the covenant to be entered with Allah.
When the Quran, example, permit the killing and oppression of non-Muslims, this term and provision of the covenant cannot be changed by any human being.

If the evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 million Muslims killed and oppressed non-Muslims as a divine duty to please God to gain greater assurance to paradise with eternal life, WHO IN THE WORLD can insist they are wrong [when Allah stated it is permissible]?

Islam per se cannot be reformed.
If you are a fundamentalist Muslim. But Muslims can certainly reform Islam and have. According to YOUR interpretation it cannot be done. And I am sure some Muslims agree with you, but others clearly do not.

Eduk
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Eduk » February 24th, 2018, 7:35 am

Religion has to change otherwise it would not exist. For evidence I give all popular religions.
As an example redefinition of suicide to martyrdom.
Saying something is immutable does not mean it is. Saying that something is not open to interpretation does not mean it isn't. Words are cheap. I can say anything.
I know many Muslims born in the UK who drink alcohol and sleep with women and take other drugs and would never tell their parents. I imagine their parents are similarly hypocritical. But they remain devout Muslims in their interpretation. And seen as it's all made up you can hardly say they are wrong.

Spectrum
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Re: Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed.

Post by Spectrum » February 24th, 2018, 11:48 pm

Eduk wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:37 am
So if Islam is reformed then it's not Islam. If that isn't no true scotsman then I don't know what is.
I can't see how it can be a no true scotsman fallacy at all.
  • No true Scotsman - Example
    Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
    Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
    Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
In the case of Islam, it is specifically defined by an all-powerful, omniscient, omnipresent God. Thus,

  • Islam = X


If 'X' is changed in any way, e.g. to "X + 0.0001" or "X - 0.001" it cannot be the immutable 'Islam' as defined, especially when God is supposed to be of the highest precision.

Note >55% of the 6,236 verses involve some negative view of non-believers. If we are to reform Islam by deleting or changing the contents of these 3,400++ verses, then it is no more the original pristine Islam that God commanded it to be.

According to the Quran, if any Muslim were to change God words, then such a person cannot be a Muslim and s/he go to Hell.

Therefore Islam per se as established by Allah cannot be reformed.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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