Proof of God

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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jerlands
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Re: Proof of God

Post by jerlands » March 13th, 2018, 8:42 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 11:04 pm
jerlands wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 8:01 am

I never said I don't have a fear of death. I said I don't have anxiety over it. I will die one day but I'd like to fulfill myself as much as possible.
ALL [with rare exceptions] humans are programmed not to fear mortality in their daily life. So I don't expect you to fear mortality consciously. But you ought to 'know thyself' re what is going on with your subconscious re the knowledge of the certainty of mortality. Note the subconscious is 90% critical to one's life while the conscious is only 10%.

Humans are programmed to have terrible fears over the threat of premature death, i.e. dying before due time.
If anyone suspect someone is going to kill him/her now, surely you will have death related anxiety [subconsciously and consciously] till you resolve the problem.

For those who are very concern over their health and thus strive to eat healthy food, take loads of supplement, exercise regularly, - this is driven by the premature-death anxiety at the subliminal level. They will think they just want to be healthy, but they are not aware what is driving them to be healthy is the premature-death anxiety pulsing in the subconscious and subliminal level.
I think people look for wellness in order to more fully appreciate and experience life. When the body is in an ill state of health that is where the minds focus is. Dis-ease is simply just that. The body being in a state of unrest.
Spectrum wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 11:04 pm
It is the same with theism. Theists believed in a God which they think they are doing for various reasons [social, belongingess, ???] but they are unaware what their subconscious mind is doing, i.e. soothing the existential angst driven by an existential crisis re the certainty of mortality.
Man looks to improve his quality of life or at least that's what I perceive. How that's accomplished can be hashed apart to death but posture has a lot to do with putting ourselves in relation the external forces, like gravity for instance. How we posture ourselves in relation to others, how we posture ourselves in relation to earth, how we posture ourselves in relation to creation changes the way we interact with these external elements.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Spectrum » March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm

jerlands wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 8:42 am
Spectrum wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 11:04 pm
ALL [with rare exceptions] humans are programmed not to fear mortality in their daily life. So I don't expect you to fear mortality consciously. But you ought to 'know thyself' re what is going on with your subconscious re the knowledge of the certainty of mortality. Note the subconscious is 90% critical to one's life while the conscious is only 10%.

Humans are programmed to have terrible fears over the threat of premature death, i.e. dying before due time.
If anyone suspect someone is going to kill him/her now, surely you will have death related anxiety [subconsciously and consciously] till you resolve the problem.

For those who are very concern over their health and thus strive to eat healthy food, take loads of supplement, exercise regularly, - this is driven by the premature-death anxiety at the subliminal level. They will think they just want to be healthy, but they are not aware what is driving them to be healthy is the premature-death anxiety pulsing in the subconscious and subliminal level.
I think people look for wellness in order to more fully appreciate and experience life. When the body is in an ill state of health that is where the minds focus is. Dis-ease is simply just that. The body being in a state of unrest.
Your thinking is too narrow in this case.

Think more, how many people take health supplements to fully appreciate and experience life more.
Their basic purpose - implicitly - is to ensure they remain healthy and don't die young -i.e. a very subtle form of existential threat.
What drove them is subconscious anxiety of death.

The point here is, one is consciously aware of what they think they are doing something but they are not aware of what their subconscious are doing and driving them to do from deeper in the brain.
When the body is in an ill state of health that is where the minds focus is. Dis-ease is simply just that. The body being in a state of unrest.
What is more critical when one is in a ill state of health is the subconscious mind can detect the person moving toward an increasing risk of death. This is why it generates an existential anxiety subliminally to the conscious mind to do something.

Man looks to improve his quality of life or at least that's what I perceive. How that's accomplished can be hashed apart to death but posture has a lot to do with putting ourselves in relation the external forces, like gravity for instance. How we posture ourselves in relation to others, how we posture ourselves in relation to earth, how we posture ourselves in relation to creation changes the way we interact with these external elements.
Re the points you raised above, do we really need 'religion' and theism to do those.
There are tons of non-theistic secular self-development programs out there for one to adopt to achieve those concerns you raised.

BUT what they [secular self-development programs] cannot achieve is to promise anyone the very desperate needed 'eternal life in a heaven' or ease the mental pains of the certainty of mortality, i.e. the existential crisis. This is the critical difference between religions [theistic or non-theistic] and every other aspects of life.
No other types of ideology can promise eternal life in heaven, only theistic religions will do that. Other theistic beliefs do not promise eternal life but they soothe the fundamental existential angst is some degrees.

Therefore the difference [isolated] is, the critical purpose of religions [theistic or non-theistic] is to deal with the existential crisis re the certainty of morality and its effects from the subconscious subliminal levels of the mind.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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jerlands
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Re: Proof of God

Post by jerlands » March 14th, 2018, 6:06 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm
jerlands wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 8:42 am

I think people look for wellness in order to more fully appreciate and experience life. When the body is in an ill state of health that is where the minds focus is. Dis-ease is simply just that. The body being in a state of unrest.
Your thinking is too narrow in this case.

Think more, how many people take health supplements to fully appreciate and experience life more.
Their basic purpose - implicitly - is to ensure they remain healthy and don't die young -i.e. a very subtle form of existential threat.
What drove them is subconscious anxiety of death.

The point here is, one is consciously aware of what they think they are doing something but they are not aware of what their subconscious are doing and driving them to do from deeper in the brain.
Life essentially is an experience or so it seems to me. What experience affords is a form of fulfillment so essentially life affords fulfilment. If you equate the fear of non-fulfilment with the fear of death then that may be true. People seek health so their experience in life will improve, that they might fulfill themselves more completely.
Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm
jerlands wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 8:42 am
When the body is in an ill state of health that is where the minds focus is. Dis-ease is simply just that. The body being in a state of unrest.
What is more critical when one is in a ill state of health is the subconscious mind can detect the person moving toward an increasing risk of death. This is why it generates an existential anxiety subliminally to the conscious mind to do something.
I don't know about that. My sister in law came down to visit after a prolonged absence, I noticed in what was apparent to me a change in her physical state and concernedly remarked she should see a doctor. She failed to do so until a year later when she was diagnosed with cancer and died shortly afterwards.
Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm
Re the points you raised above, do we really need 'religion' and theism to do those.
There are tons of non-theistic secular self-development programs out there for one to adopt to achieve those concerns you raised.
One of the more effective treatment programs available for alcohol addiction has been AA and the foundation of it is centered on getting back in beneficial relationship with everything else. The program has at its core the 'Serenity Prayer' that I believe is recited either before or after the meetings. Aside from that, science has proven the effectiveness of religion and spirituality in the maintenance of health and wellbeing.
Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm
BUT what they [secular self-development programs] cannot achieve is to promise anyone the very desperate needed 'eternal life in a heaven' or ease the mental pains of the certainty of mortality, i.e. the existential crisis. This is the critical difference between religions [theistic or non-theistic] and every other aspects of life.
No other types of ideology can promise eternal life in heaven, only theistic religions will do that. Other theistic beliefs do not promise eternal life but they soothe the fundamental existential angst is some degrees.

Therefore the difference [isolated] is, the critical purpose of religions [theistic or non-theistic] is to deal with the existential crisis re the certainty of morality and its effects from the subconscious subliminal levels of the mind.
Man seeks truth. It is truth that provides man a means to survive. What is the truth in say the Christian religion that might appeal to people? Possibly the concept of living in a society where there is equal justice and a concern for the wellbeing of all, which of course would include themselves.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Spectrum » March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm

jerlands wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 6:06 am
Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm
Your thinking is too narrow in this case.

Think more, how many people take health supplements to fully appreciate and experience life more.
Their basic purpose - implicitly - is to ensure they remain healthy and don't die young -i.e. a very subtle form of existential threat.
What drove them is subconscious anxiety of death.

The point here is, one is consciously aware of what they think they are doing something but they are not aware of what their subconscious are doing and driving them to do from deeper in the brain.
Life essentially is an experience or so it seems to me. What experience affords is a form of fulfillment so essentially life affords fulfilment. If you equate the fear of non-fulfilment with the fear of death then that may be true. People seek health so their experience in life will improve, that they might fulfill themselves more completely.
The concept of fulfilment is too general.
Ensuring one has two meals a day and achieving it is also a fulfilment.
To be happy constantly and achieving that is also a fulfilment.

Your claim that to be healthy is to ensure one can fulfill their other expectations.
But note, to be healthy itself and achieving good health is also fulfilment, i.e. it is a more fundamental fulfillment than all other fulfillment in careers, and other experiences.

If health is a more fundamental fulfilment, then what does health fulfill?
The answer is at the fundamental level to fulfil a healthy state is to prevent premature death.

Thus my point;
What drove people to maintain health is subconscious anxiety of death.
Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm

What is more critical when one is in a ill state of health is the subconscious mind can detect the person moving toward an increasing risk of death. This is why it generates an existential anxiety subliminally to the conscious mind to do something.
I don't know about that. My sister in law came down to visit after a prolonged absence, I noticed in what was apparent to me a change in her physical state and concernedly remarked she should see a doctor. She failed to do so until a year later when she was diagnosed with cancer and died shortly afterwards.
You missed my point. I did not imply the subconscious can detect all illness.
What I am saying of there is a health scare to the individual or masses, people will take various preventive measure. At the subconscious level what drive them is the proximate purpose that they don't die prematurely.
Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 10:01 pm
BUT what they [secular self-development programs] cannot achieve is to promise anyone the very desperate needed 'eternal life in a heaven' or ease the mental pains of the certainty of mortality, i.e. the existential crisis. This is the critical difference between religions [theistic or non-theistic] and every other aspects of life.
No other types of ideology can promise eternal life in heaven, only theistic religions will do that. Other theistic beliefs do not promise eternal life but they soothe the fundamental existential angst is some degrees.

Therefore the difference [isolated] is, the critical purpose of religions [theistic or non-theistic] is to deal with the existential crisis re the certainty of morality and its effects from the subconscious subliminal levels of the mind.
Man seeks truth. It is truth that provides man a means to survive. What is the truth in say the Christian religion that might appeal to people? Possibly the concept of living in a society where there is equal justice and a concern for the wellbeing of all, which of course would include themselves.
You did not address my point above and you got it wrong here.
Lies, falsehoods, all sorts of evil acts can also enable a man to survive, e.g. lying to save one's life when threatened.

Do you agree/disagree with this point?
  • "BUT what they [secular self-development programs] cannot achieve is to promise anyone the very desperate needed 'eternal life in a heaven' or ease the mental pains of the certainty of mortality, i.e. the existential crisis. This is the critical difference between religions [theistic or non-theistic] and every other aspects of life."
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Philosch
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Philosch » March 15th, 2018, 4:10 pm

Couldn't agree more Spectrum, even the Buddhists whom I have a very healthy and positive view towards at their most sophisticated level are helping people to try and soothe their existential angst by first getting them to recognize that the individual(self) identity is doomed to suffer no matter what, (first Buddhist teaching is "All Life is suffering") and then trying to help you understand that the very "sense of self" which you wish to preserve is the source of all your suffering and an illusion .....so that by dis-identifying from your ego(self) and identifying instead with all of creation you can come to equanimity with all of creation. That's the real goal of transcendental meditation.

What you can not do even in this tradition is preserve your own individual ego and avoid suffering at the same time. You may be able to do that temporarily but eventually the ego loses. The monotheistic traditions are the only show in town that promises to allow you to preserve your egoic self beyond the death of the body and that's what ultimately makes monotheism so seductive and what ultimately drives the belief in dualism and/or god.

Dark Matter
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Dark Matter » March 15th, 2018, 7:12 pm


Philosch
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Philosch » March 16th, 2018, 9:10 am

I'm not sure what you think my mind's made up about but to your point, I didn't claim to be a Buddhist, I said I had a positive view of their most sophisticated incarnation. My point wasn't really about Buddhism, but rather the illusory nature of the self and how the ego's defense mechanisms lead to the need for a belief in any kind of god. The above article you site merely points out how any philosophy can be misinterpreted and misused for selfish and self preserving needs. The Tibetan Buddhist are non violent for the most part. I can call myself whatever I like, then go out and commit acts of violence and claim it to be on behalf of whatever group I claim to belong to. I would strongly resist the idea that all religions are equivalent in this regard. While you can always find exceptions, you can't possibly make the case that Buddhism is inherently just as violent as Christianity or even worse Islam. All religions are not equal in this regard, not by a long shot. No matter, because as I said I wasn't supporting religion, quite the contrary, I firmly believe mankind needs to grow up and move beyond religious thinking if it is to survive. All religions can lead to some form of tribalism and the article you site is a good example of this.

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jerlands
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Re: Proof of God

Post by jerlands » March 16th, 2018, 1:15 pm

Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm
jerlands wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 6:06 am

Life essentially is an experience or so it seems to me. What experience affords is a form of fulfillment so essentially life affords fulfilment. If you equate the fear of non-fulfilment with the fear of death then that may be true. People seek health so their experience in life will improve, that they might fulfill themselves more completely.
The concept of fulfilment is too general.
Ensuring one has two meals a day and achieving it is also a fulfilment.
To be happy constantly and achieving that is also a fulfilment.

Your claim that to be healthy is to ensure one can fulfill their other expectations.
But note, to be healthy itself and achieving good health is also fulfilment, i.e. it is a more fundamental fulfillment than all other fulfillment in careers, and other experiences.
Essentially the word fulfillment should bring about the notion of completion or making whole. Not all men have the same dream so yes, for some fulfillment may be different than others.
Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm
If health is a more fundamental fulfilment, then what does health fulfill?
The answer is at the fundamental level to fulfil a healthy state is to prevent premature death.

Thus my point;
What drove people to maintain health is subconscious anxiety of death.
Nonsense. What drives people to health is a realization. What the body is? How the body affects attitude, perception, emotion, attention and as you can see.. everything... But then consideration for the mind... how the mind affects the body? How the mind can be influenced by the body and how the body can be influenced by the mind. Almost as though there were some sort of interdependence... can you see that? Health simply allows people to perform at a higher level.
Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm
I don't know about that. My sister in law came down to visit after a prolonged absence, I noticed in what was apparent to me a change in her physical state and concernedly remarked she should see a doctor. She failed to do so until a year later when she was diagnosed with cancer and died shortly afterwards.
You missed my point. I did not imply the subconscious can detect all illness.
What I am saying of there is a health scare to the individual or masses, people will take various preventive measure. At the subconscious level what drive them is the proximate purpose that they don't die prematurely.
The basic premise of life is survival. That's it. What it is that affords survival in the long term however requires vision of the long term.
Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm
Man seeks truth. It is truth that provides man a means to survive. What is the truth in say the Christian religion that might appeal to people? Possibly the concept of living in a society where there is equal justice and a concern for the wellbeing of all, which of course would include themselves.
You did not address my point above and you got it wrong here.
Lies, falsehoods, all sorts of evil acts can also enable a man to survive, e.g. lying to save one's life when threatened.

Do you agree/disagree with this point?
  • "BUT what they [secular self-development programs] cannot achieve is to promise anyone the very desperate needed 'eternal life in a heaven' or ease the mental pains of the certainty of mortality, i.e. the existential crisis. This is the critical difference between religions [theistic or non-theistic] and every other aspects of life."
What I can see is men who have travel far and from the depths of their souls suggest to me elements of importance I should take into consideration in my life.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Spectrum » March 17th, 2018, 2:58 am

Philosch wrote:
March 15th, 2018, 4:10 pm
Couldn't agree more Spectrum, even the Buddhists whom I have a very healthy and positive view towards at their most sophisticated level are helping people to try and soothe their existential angst by first getting them to recognize that the individual(self) identity is doomed to suffer no matter what, (first Buddhist teaching is "All Life is suffering") and then trying to help you understand that the very "sense of self" which you wish to preserve is the source of all your suffering and an illusion .....so that by dis-identifying from your ego(self) and identifying instead with all of creation you can come to equanimity with all of creation. That's the real goal of transcendental meditation.

What you can not do even in this tradition is preserve your own individual ego and avoid suffering at the same time. You may be able to do that temporarily but eventually the ego loses. The monotheistic traditions are the only show in town that promises to allow you to preserve your egoic self beyond the death of the body and that's what ultimately makes monotheism so seductive and what ultimately drives the belief in dualism and/or god.
Agree, good points.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Spectrum
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Spectrum » March 17th, 2018, 3:32 am

Dark Matter wrote:
March 15th, 2018, 7:12 pm
Not to burst your bubble, but ...

Why Are We Surprised When Buddhists Are Violent?

Sri Lanka violence mirrors Myanmar unrest: As Buddhist monks stoke communal fire, religion's 'tolerant' image under threat

More can be said, but with your minds made up, what’s the point?
You are a case of the blind following the blind, i.e. the above is based on blatant ignorance and no attempt to understand the essence and ethos of religions, i.e. Buddhism and Islam.

Note the facts,
  • 1. All humans has the potential to commit terrible evils and violence.
    2. A % [20% conservatively] of All humans are born with an active tendency to commit evil - the evil prone.
    3. These percentile of evil prone are triggered by evil laden stimuli from various sources.
What is going on with Islam ever since it first appear is;
1. Islam as in the Quran has TONS of evil laden elements in its verses.
2. The natural evil prone Muslims [pool of 20%] are triggered by these evil elements within Islam to be inspired to commit terrible evils and violence in the name of the religion.

On the other hand, the point with Buddhists [Myanmar, Sri Lanka, USA or anywhere] who commit evils and violence against Muslims is because of point 2, i.e. these are the % of unfortunate humans who were born with an active evil tendency. They are reacting to the terrible evils and violence by Muslims on their own natural impulse and that has nothing to do with the religion of Buddhism itself.
Such reaction using violence is wrong and need to be addressed but it has nothing to so with the religion itself.

There are no evil laden elements in the Sutras of Theravada Buddhism for the Buddhists in Myanmar and Sri Langka to justify their violent acts. Therefore we cannot blame Buddhism per se for the violence by Buddhists like we can blame Islam for the violence by SOME evil prone Muslims.

There are violence by Buddhist monks but we don't hear them referring to any verses in the relevant main Sutras, shouting Buddha-u-Akbar or invoking the name of The Buddha.

There are a few lines of verses with evil elements in the Mahayana Sutras which are like needle in the haystacks. But note these verses are not evil laden [loaded to shoot]. Note, those Buddhists in Myanmar and Sri Langka rely on the Theravada Sutras, not the Mahayana Sutras.

So it is very stupid [when they don't get the facts right] for anyone to blame Buddhism per-se for violence committed by Buddhist monks in Myanmar and Sri Lanka.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Spectrum
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Spectrum » March 17th, 2018, 4:09 am

jerlands wrote:
March 16th, 2018, 1:15 pm
Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm
The concept of fulfilment is too general.
Ensuring one has two meals a day and achieving it is also a fulfilment.
To be happy constantly and achieving that is also a fulfilment.

Your claim that to be healthy is to ensure one can fulfill their other expectations.
But note, to be healthy itself and achieving good health is also fulfilment, i.e. it is a more fundamental fulfillment than all other fulfillment in careers, and other experiences.
Essentially the word fulfillment should bring about the notion of completion or making whole. Not all men have the same dream so yes, for some fulfillment may be different than others.
The main meaning of 'fulfilment' is
- to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fulfil

"completion or making whole" is very secondary to 'fulfilment' as 'completion or making whole' is very subjective.
Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm
If health is a more fundamental fulfilment, then what does health fulfill?
The answer is at the fundamental level to fulfil a healthy state is to prevent premature death.

Thus my point;
What drove people to maintain health is subconscious anxiety of death.
Nonsense.
Are you sure?
Note;
Obviously you are not conscious of what your subconscious mind really want.
However if you think deeply all our conscious deliberation of health [realization, interdependence of mind and body or whatever] is driven by the subconscious anxiety of death.
The subconscious mind drives humans [at whatever degree] to avoid premature death.
What drives people to health is a realization.
What the body is? How the body affects attitude, perception, emotion, attention and as you can see.. everything... But then consideration for the mind... how the mind affects the body? How the mind can be influenced by the body and how the body can be influenced by the mind. Almost as though there were some sort of interdependence... can you see that? Health simply allows people to perform at a higher level.
Note I stated above what drives people to the realization of health matters at the conscious level of awareness is driven by the subconscious anxiety of death.

Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm

You missed my point. I did not imply the subconscious can detect all illness.
What I am saying of there is a health scare to the individual or masses, people will take various preventive measure. At the subconscious level what drive them is the proximate purpose that they don't die prematurely.
The basic premise of life is survival. That's it. What it is that affords survival in the long term however requires vision of the long term.
Yes, basic premise of life is survival. But note, the Survival is only possible if the person do not die [prematurely].
The concern for health is for survival which is associated with not dying prematuredly.

Thus the concern for religion is also for survival [more so permanent survival and eternal life] which is conditioned by anxiety of death [prematuredly].

Spectrum wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm

You did not address my point above and you got it wrong here.
Lies, falsehoods, all sorts of evil acts can also enable a man to survive, e.g. lying to save one's life when threatened.

Do you agree/disagree with this point?
  • "BUT what they [secular self-development programs] cannot achieve is to promise anyone the very desperate needed 'eternal life in a heaven' or ease the mental pains of the certainty of mortality, i.e. the existential crisis. This is the critical difference between religions [theistic or non-theistic] and every other aspects of life."
What I can see is men who have travel far and from the depths of their souls suggest to me elements of importance I should take into consideration in my life.
You missed my point again.

The main point of religions which is absent from other beliefs is driven by the subliminal [not conscious] fear of death.
This fear of death [subliminal] drives people to idealize [conjure] the idea of a God to soothe those subliminal fears [angst].
Thus the idea of God arise out of psychological impulses.
Thus there is no way one can prove God exists real within an empirical-rational reality, because God [borne out of fears] is an illusion and an impossibility.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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jerlands
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Re: Proof of God

Post by jerlands » March 17th, 2018, 6:20 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 4:09 am
jerlands wrote:
March 16th, 2018, 1:15 pm

Essentially the word fulfillment should bring about the notion of completion or making whole. Not all men have the same dream so yes, for some fulfillment may be different than others.
The main meaning of 'fulfilment' is
- to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fulfil

"completion or making whole" is very secondary to 'fulfilment' as 'completion or making whole' is very subjective.
This is getting silly... Fulfillment is the act of fulfilling... the English Oxford's first definition of fulfilling is "bring to completion or reality." The definition of "reality" is "the world or the state of things as they actually exist." Now reality is argumentative but in my mind to bring self into reality would require a complete or whole picture of everything else.
Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 4:09 am
Nonsense.
Are you sure?
Note;
Obviously you are not conscious of what your subconscious mind really want.
However if you think deeply all our conscious deliberation of health [realization, interdependence of mind and body or whatever] is driven by the subconscious anxiety of death.
The subconscious mind drives humans [at whatever degree] to avoid premature death.
I must be daft so would you please show me in your article where is states that the subconscious fear of death is what drives people to health?
Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 4:09 am
What drives people to health is a realization.
What the body is? How the body affects attitude, perception, emotion, attention and as you can see.. everything... But then consideration for the mind... how the mind affects the body? How the mind can be influenced by the body and how the body can be influenced by the mind. Almost as though there were some sort of interdependence... can you see that? Health simply allows people to perform at a higher level.
Note I stated above what drives people to the realization of health matters at the conscious level of awareness is driven by the subconscious anxiety of death.
So you're saying only those who believe in "God" have this subconscious anxiety of death and atheists don't?
Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 4:09 am
The basic premise of life is survival. That's it. What it is that affords survival in the long term however requires vision of the long term.
Yes, basic premise of life is survival. But note, the Survival is only possible if the person do not die [prematurely].
The concern for health is for survival which is associated with not dying prematuredly.

Thus the concern for religion is also for survival [more so permanent survival and eternal life] which is conditioned by anxiety of death [prematuredly].
Religious teaching comes in a many flavors but Christianity does teach of life after death and the possibility of eternal damnation. That does put the fear into people. The flip side of the coin is it also teaches of "God's" eternal mercy so who's to say? I believe men who truly pursue "God" do so that they might grow.
Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 4:09 am
What I can see is men who have travel far and from the depths of their souls suggest to me elements of importance I should take into consideration in my life.
You missed my point again.

The main point of religions which is absent from other beliefs is driven by the subliminal [not conscious] fear of death.
This fear of death [subliminal] drives people to idealize [conjure] the idea of a God to soothe those subliminal fears [angst].
Thus the idea of God arise out of psychological impulses.
Thus there is no way one can prove God exists real within an empirical-rational reality, because God [borne out of fears] is an illusion and an impossibility.
Well, I do believe man experienced "God" in the mind so the psyche is very much a part of "God's" experience but I also believe "God's" presence is a real thing the entire being experiences (similar to Biblical stories like Moses.)
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Spectrum » March 17th, 2018, 6:41 am

I'll address the other points later;
jerlands wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 6:20 am
Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 4:09 am
The main meaning of 'fulfilment' is
- to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fulfil

"completion or making whole" is very secondary to 'fulfilment' as 'completion or making whole' is very subjective.
This is getting silly... Fulfillment is the act of fulfilling... the English Oxford's first definition of fulfilling is "bring to completion or reality." The definition of "reality" is "the world or the state of things as they actually exist." Now reality is argumentative but in my mind to bring self into reality would require a complete or whole picture of everything else.
Show me where in the English Oxford's

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fulfilling
or
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fulfilment

the first definition of fulfilling is "bring to completion or reality."

This,
Now reality is argumentative but in my mind to bring self into reality would require a complete or whole picture of everything else.
is an impossibility.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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jerlands
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Re: Proof of God

Post by jerlands » March 17th, 2018, 11:03 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 6:41 am
I'll address the other points later;
jerlands wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 6:20 am

This is getting silly... Fulfillment is the act of fulfilling... the English Oxford's first definition of fulfilling is "bring to completion or reality." The definition of "reality" is "the world or the state of things as they actually exist." Now reality is argumentative but in my mind to bring self into reality would require a complete or whole picture of everything else.
Show me where in the English Oxford's

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fulfilling
or
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fulfilment

the first definition of fulfilling is "bring to completion or reality."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/fulfill
Fulfill: Bring to completion or reality
Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 6:41 am
This,
Now reality is argumentative but in my mind to bring self into reality would require a complete or whole picture of everything else.
is an impossibility.
Know Thyself - This ancient Greek aphorism was derived, as so much of their knowledge, from Egypt that taught man was the microcosm of the universe and within man lay all the functions of creation. Man, the crown of creation. To know man is to know the universe.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
Posts: 5160
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Proof of God

Post by Spectrum » March 17th, 2018, 9:12 pm

jerlands wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 11:03 am
Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 6:41 am
I'll address the other points later;

Show me where in the English Oxford's

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fulfilling
or
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fulfilment

the first definition of fulfilling is "bring to completion or reality."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/fulfill
Fulfill: Bring to completion or reality
Ok, but note the varied meanings of 'fulfil.'

Even if we take your choice, fulfil = completion or reality, it is still as I had stated an impossibility.

In this case you have to define what you mean by reality.

In the case of completeness, note Godel's Incompleteness Theorem in the perspective of mathematics and reality. According to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, completeness is an impossibility.

Thus,
If health is a more fundamental fulfilment, then what does health fulfill?
The answer is at the fundamental level to fulfil a healthy state is to prevent premature death.
In general you cannot stop at fulfilment of health but there are further objective beyond health to be fulfilled subliminally if not consciously, i.e. avoidance of premature death.

Spectrum wrote:
March 17th, 2018, 6:41 am
This,

is an impossibility.
Know Thyself - This ancient Greek aphorism was derived, as so much of their knowledge, from Egypt that taught man was the microcosm of the universe and within man lay all the functions of creation. Man, the crown of creation. To know man is to know the universe.

[/quote]
I quote 'Know Thyself' very regularly but I personally take the effort to know more of myself.
As I have asked you before, how much do you know about your own brain and how it works, especially why you believe God exists as real?
From what you have posted, there is a lot to know about your own self.

Btw, you can question me on what you think I do not know about my self.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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