Who Is God?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Dark Matter
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Fooloso4 wrote: March 20th, 2018, 8:24 pm
What is the given proposition relating to non-locality that is of major import? What is its benefit? Some choose philosophy over religion because they value truth over questionable claims. There are lots of lies and falsehoods that may be beneficial. Some prefer to leave what is unknown unknown rather than rush in to fill the gap with God. I find it comical that you attempt to dismiss the question of evidence but when you think there is an opening for evidence of God then it becomes of major importance. It is not a question of proof but of explanatory power, evidence, and how well a claim fits what it accepted as known.
Clumsy dodge. Can't do better than that?
Dark Matter
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Look, Fool, Greta seemed frustrated by the realizion that God is the “great unknown” rather than any specific idea, and for good reason. The God conceived is not God. All you’re doing is following in the same footsteps of just about every other atheist I’ve encountered: you build a straw man out of your own imagination, burn it, and then declare victory over a silly superstition — never mind the correlations with science, never mind the language is analogical, never mind how well it all fits with personal experience and insight beyond the reach of science.

Greta, stop pretending you are agnostic, or at least start acting like one.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Sy Borg »

Dark Matter wrote: March 21st, 2018, 2:41 amGreta, stop pretending you are agnostic, or at least start acting like one.
Not so long ago I did earlier on speak with you in this thread about a number of ways in which I could imagine something like a god to be existent, and in several posts.

Do you remember them? Did you even read them? :lol:
Fooloso4
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Dark Matter:
Clumsy dodge. Can't do better than that?
Good one, dodging the question of what you claim is the “possible implication” of non-locality by accusing me of dodging. Dodging the fact that it is not a question of proof but of explanatory power, evidence, and how well a claim fits what it accepted as known. Dodging the problem of the impulse to imagine implications of major import because it fits how you desire things to be. Dodging the question of the value of truth and its relationship to what is unknown.
The God conceived is not God.
God is the “great unknown”
the primacy of a First Source and Center
Can you not see that when you talk about God as the great unknown, first source, center, and ground of Being, etc. your are talking about a God conceived?
… never mind the correlations with science …
What correlations with science? The implication of non-locality that you avoid discussing? What science cannot explain is not a correlation with a God not conceived or a correlation with a God spoken of analogically. What science cannot explain is not explained by positing something unexplained, something that cannot be conceived. Some of what science cannot explain will in time be explained by science, but not everything. God, however you conceive or attempt to avoid conceiving, cannot be ruled out, but there is a big difference between not ruling something out and insisting that it must be.
… you build a straw man out of your own imagination …
Talk about a straw man argument! On a thread entitled “Who is God” you claim that the possible implications of non-locality are of major import, but when I attempt to get you to clarify the implications by naming God you go into your well-rehearsed retreat mode.

I went back a few pages to see if I could find some clarity in your argument but instead found contradiction:
I have repeatedly said that we can know that God is but not what God is.
God is, though we can make some logical inferences and deduce something of his nature by studying nature.
As to entropy, chaos, and order Sean Carroll provides a very nice illustration. Carefully add cream to coffee in a clear cup. What you have will be a low entropy state, a high degree of order with coffee on the bottom and cream on top. Stir with a spoon and you will begin to see swirls of cream, complexity, when the two are fully mixed, it will be in a state of high entropy:
Those swirls in the cream mixing into the coffee? That’s us. Ephemeral patterns of complexity, riding a wave of increasing entropy from simple beginnings to a simple end. We should enjoy the ride. (The Big Picture)
DM:
… some kind of symmetry-breaking impetus or will must be postulated prior to any ''scientific” explanation of the universe.
Is this some kind of symmetry-breaking impetus or will God’s will? Again this is a God conceived, a God who wills or provides impetus.The fact that you cannot understand how the universe came to be as it is does not mean there must be God, or if you are being coy, some kind of symmetry-breaking impetus or will. This is the same worn out argument that precedes every advance in scientific knowledge.
Without God, there are no universally binding moral rules.
So, God is the source of universally binding moral rules, another way in which you conceive your God who cannot be conceived.
… a creative indwelling mind …
And still another way you conceive of your God who cannot be conceived.

Let’s see the various ways in which you have conceived your God who cannot be conceived in the last few pages:
first source
center
ground of Being
Impetus or will
Source of the moral order
A creative indwelling mind
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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands »

Fooloso4 wrote: March 21st, 2018, 9:02 am Let’s see the various ways in which you have conceived your God who cannot be conceived in the last few pages:
first source
center
ground of Being
Impetus or will
Source of the moral order
A creative indwelling mind
I see God as Law, that which is, was and shall be. What all that entails includes all the volumes that have been written about it.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Eduk
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Eduk »

DM in your argument of atheists building straw men I can see your point. Indeed one of the reasons I am an atheist and not an agnostic is because no God can be conceived. I am however agnostic about inconceivable.
Unknown means unknown.
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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands »

Eduk wrote: March 21st, 2018, 2:40 pm DM in your argument of atheists building straw men I can see your point. Indeed one of the reasons I am an atheist and not an agnostic is because no God can be conceived. I am however agnostic about inconceivable.
The thing is.. God has been conceived, to what degree is questionable but the conception of God is evident through teachings about God.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Eduk
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Eduk »

Name a teaching about God.
Unknown means unknown.
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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands »

Eduk wrote: March 21st, 2018, 5:46 pm Name a teaching about God.
The Bible is the main teaching of God. Aside from that there are hundreds of theological treatise on God.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
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Sy Borg
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Sy Borg »

There have been conceptions of God, but then again there have been conceptions of Zeus, Allah and numerous other deities or different conceptions of a conceived Big Kahuna deity. Which is correct when the ideologies differ? Is there a common core in all religions, something they all share?
Eduk
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Eduk »

The Bible is the main teaching of God. Aside from that there are hundreds of theological treatise on God.
I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to come across as antagonising. I meant merely what I said, name one teaching of God. The point was so that I could disseminate one point (as opposed to an entire Bible). Please select your favourite teaching, or the best teaching, or even a teaching a random. I believe it would make a good starting point.
Unknown means unknown.
Eduk
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Eduk »

Sorry not one teaching of God, one teaching about God.
Unknown means unknown.
Belindi
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Belindi »

Eduk, my favourite teaching about God is Spinoza's. S. explained how God and nature are the same.
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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands »

Eduk wrote: March 21st, 2018, 7:31 pm
The Bible is the main teaching of God. Aside from that there are hundreds of theological treatise on God.
I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to come across as antagonising. I meant merely what I said, name one teaching of God. The point was so that I could disseminate one point (as opposed to an entire Bible). Please select your favourite teaching, or the best teaching, or even a teaching a random. I believe it would make a good starting point.
I was raised Catholic and attended parochial schools but ventured out into other stuff at a young age. There's an author John Romer that put out a book called Testament that is pretty good. My tendency though is towards authors like Schwaller De Lubicz. There's a series of books written by Rene's wife Isha... Chick Pea and Her-Bak that I think are both insightful and fun to read.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Dark Matter
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Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Dark Matter »

Eduk wrote: March 21st, 2018, 2:40 pm DM in your argument of atheists building straw men I can see your point. Indeed one of the reasons I am an atheist and not an agnostic is because no God can be conceived. I am however agnostic about inconceivable.
Fair enough. I just want to make clear that what I’m so obnoxious about is NOT new. It is something every critic of theism should be aware of and if they aren’t, they don’t know what they’re just flapping their gums without saying anything.
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