What is Your Story?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by -1- » July 18th, 2018, 6:20 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 3:42 am
Dark Matter wrote:A skeptic’s way of saying, “Don’t confuse me with the facts”
No. A way of saying: "If there's a difference between the theory and observed reality then observed reality is right". Pretty bloody obvious really. A headline like "Scientists Have Concluded That The Universe Shouldn't Really Exist" is essentially the same as a headline like "Scientists Have Concluded That Objects Shouldn't Fall to the Ground". We all know that the laws of physics are descriptive, not prescriptive. The Law of Universal Gravitation doesn't tell objects what to do. It attempts to describe what they actually do. So clearly there's no "should" or "shouldn't" about it.
There are two ways of interpreting DM's quote of a skeptic. One is what you wrote, ST3; that jocularly, theory is superior to observation, and any facts contradicting theory are wrong.

Another way of interpreting the quote "don't confuse me with the facts" is to say that the speaker has very little ability to mentally process events and to make sense of them, therefore facts and facts and facts only confuse him/her. Somewhat like one knows how to send faxes, but if you go into the theory of how the faxing operation actually works, he or she gets confused.
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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 18th, 2018, 6:33 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 3:17 pm
Greta wrote:Skepticism towards what?
It looks like we'll never know.
Seemingly he has a problem with skepticism in general.

I expect that he has a fair bit of luck dropping unexplained little ad hom bombs on Twitter and Instagram. It is not so effective on forums where expectations are much higher.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 2:42 am

Greta wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 6:33 pm

Seemingly he has a problem with skepticism in general.
What I have a problem with are those who haven’t the courage to deal with the facts at hand.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 3:16 am

-1- wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 6:20 pm
Another way of interpreting the quote "don't confuse me with the facts" is to say that the speaker has very little ability to mentally process events and to make sense of them, therefore facts and facts and facts only confuse him/her. Somewhat like one knows how to send faxes, but if you go into the theory of how the faxing operation actually works, he or she gets confused.
Good way to put it.

If you want to know how a watch functions without opening the case, you must be willing to hypothesize about its inner workings. When the hypothesis fails, and it surely will, make corrections and move on to the next. Materialism is a failed hypothesis; a reasonable person would stop defending it and let go.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Steve3007 » July 19th, 2018, 3:32 am

Dark Matter wrote:What I have a problem with are those who haven’t the courage to deal with the facts at hand.
I don't see how that has anything to do with stories which have headlines saying "the Universe shouldn't exist" and which are about such things as the predicted distribution of matter and anti-matter in models beings different to their distribution in reality and the consequent need to change the models to better fit reality.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Steve3007 » July 19th, 2018, 3:38 am

-1- wrote:There are two ways of interpreting DM's quote of a skeptic. One is what you wrote, ST3; that jocularly, theory is superior to observation, and any facts contradicting theory are wrong.

Another way of interpreting the quote "don't confuse me with the facts" is to say that the speaker has very little ability to mentally process events and to make sense of them, therefore facts and facts and facts only confuse him/her. Somewhat like one knows how to send faxes, but if you go into the theory of how the faxing operation actually works, he or she gets confused.
I think it's clear that DM meant the first sense. He proposes that there are people in existence who he refers to as skeptics who, when reality-as-observed deviates from their theories, still prefer to stick to their theories. No doubt true. There are some funny people about. But nothing to do with "The Universe Shouldn't Exist" stories, which is what appears to have been the recent subject of conversation.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Fooloso4 » July 19th, 2018, 12:01 pm

Here is what is said in the story cited about the story of the universe says:
"An asymmetry must exist here somewhere but we simply do not understand where the difference is. What is the source of the symmetry break?"

… there must be something we don't know about yet that stopped this from happening when the Universe was born.
Physics and the math supporting it do not tell us that the universe should not exist, it tells us that we do not yet have the whole of the story. The fact of the matter is that we cannot draw valid conclusions based on incomplete knowledge of the facts. This is the story of the normal course of science.

Stories spun from dross, God of the gaps by whatever name, do not make the “Force” more plausible than the story of the continued progress of scientific understanding. Of course this is a very old story. The specifics change but the story remains the same. Time after time “promissory materialism” delivers and theists inclined to perpetuate their stories go in search of another gap they hope will make their story plausible. If history is any indication, when the symmetry problem is solved they simply ignore it and more on to find a new gap to be filled by their God.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 12:46 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 12:01 pm
Here is what is said in the story cited about the story of the universe says:
"An asymmetry must exist here somewhere but we simply do not understand where the difference is. What is the source of the symmetry break?"

… there must be something we don't know about yet that stopped this from happening when the Universe was born.
Physics and the math supporting it do not tell us that the universe should not exist, it tells us that we do not yet have the whole of the story. The fact of the matter is that we cannot draw valid conclusions based on incomplete knowledge of the facts. This is the story of the normal course of science.

Stories spun from dross, God of the gaps by whatever name, do not make the “Force” more plausible than the story of the continued progress of scientific understanding. Of course this is a very old story. The specifics change but the story remains the same. Time after time “promissory materialism” delivers and theists inclined to perpetuate their stories go in search of another gap they hope will make their story plausible. If history is any indication, when the symmetry problem is solved they simply ignore it and more on to find a new gap to be filled by their God.
Here we go again: “I don’t know, but not that. Consciousness/will simply cannot be more fundamental than the unconscious permutation and oscillation of waves, particles or what not. To hell with all the pointers and possibilities indicating otherwise.”

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Fooloso4 » July 19th, 2018, 1:40 pm

Dark Matter:
Here we go again: “I don’t know, but not that. Consciousness/will simply cannot be more fundamental than the unconscious permutation and oscillation of waves, particles or what not. To hell with all the pointers and possibilities indicating otherwise.”
You are attempting to distance yourself from your erroneous claim that physics and the math supports the idea that the universe should not exist.

What is fundamental remains an open question. Either way, the symmetry problem, as the article indicates, is an incomplete puzzle. It is funny that you seem willing to follow the science as long as you imagine it holds out the possibility for your God of the gaps, but you condemn the same science for doing what it does because it does not take seriously the “Force” as a possible solution.

You are right, here we go again.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 2:22 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 1:40 pm
Dark Matter:
Here we go again: “I don’t know, but not that. Consciousness/will simply cannot be more fundamental than the unconscious permutation and oscillation of waves, particles or what not. To hell with all the pointers and possibilities indicating otherwise.”
You are attempting to distance yourself from your erroneous claim that physics and the math supports the idea that the universe should not exist.
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. All I’m saying is work with the facts at hand.

Mostly, I’m just don’t see how “free thinkers” can be so closed-minded; i.e., unwilling to let go of a failed or dead-end hypothesis.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 19th, 2018, 6:00 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 3:32 am
Dark Matter wrote:What I have a problem with are those who haven’t the courage to deal with the facts at hand.
I don't see how that has anything to do with stories which have headlines saying "the Universe shouldn't exist" and which are about such things as the predicted distribution of matter and anti-matter in models beings different to their distribution in reality and the consequent need to change the models to better fit reality.
Exactly.

When DM is defeated he reverts to random Twitter style put downs with almost nothing to do with the topic or the person at the end of the ad hominem.

Rather, it is clear that DM had zero idea what he was talking about when he shot off that line - it was just a mindless, reflexive hostile reaction to being proven wrong.

He know the truth, though - Dark Matter made a hasty and wildly wrong supposition that was corrected, and he simply wimped out. He simply lacked the character to admit being wrong.

It is time to put the arrow in the bullseye with this character ...

What he has done says much about theism and the scriptures. If adherents don't even have the strength of character to admit a little mistake on a little philosophy forum, then that demonstrates that their claims about religion's character-building qualities are false.

Religiosity no longer brings truthfulness as it once tended to do with the old pre-evangelist breed of believer, many of whom still toddle off the church on Sundays. They were sincere - they meant it. Today's religions are largely corrupt. Thus, if we find examples of theists of strong character then that is because they are inherently good, good enough not to be corrupted by their distorted creeds.

Today's evangelists are nothing more political beasts and seemingly almost largely amoral, certainly when it comes to dealing with non--Christians. I just dealt with a rabid Christian on another forum who, after spending YEARS complaining and bad-mouthing what he calls "secularists" on a daily basis, flatly denied that he complains about secularists. Other forum members were simply agog at the Trumpian shamelessness of it. It was akin to Trump denying that he was blonde while staring at the cameras with with windswept blonde locks.

It's as if words don't mean anything to these people so they don't worry about how they use them to manipulate others who take truthfulness seriously.

At the risk of perhaps throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it seems to me that religions have become exactly the opposite to what they intended and should ideally be discarded altogether over time. Rather than a means of transcendence religion has become a political conduit, one that chains people to the profane rather than lifting them above it.

When was the last time you saw a theist on a forum inspired and waxing lyrical over God's creation. Showing love for nature? Never, because they are too busy applauding Trump's attempts to remove as much untamed nature from the Earth as possible.

So religions are now now just politics. Right wing politics, claiming tax exemptions for their partisan gaming or society's moral systems. It fits the spirit of today's tendency towards rationalisation in industry where the soulfulness is removed for efficiency, leaving only an ugly shell, eg. pop music, architecture. In religions' case "efficiency" means bums on pews and, like (especially conservative) politicians, most seem happy to exploit the darkness of human nature to bring in the flock.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Fooloso4 » July 19th, 2018, 7:55 pm

Dark Matter:
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
Really? You claimed that physics supports the idea that the universe should not exist. You posted a link in support of that claim. Only if you read the article that is not what it says. The symmetry problem does not say that the universe should not exist. What it says again is that:
"An asymmetry must exist here somewhere but we simply do not understand where the difference is. What is the source of the symmetry break?"

… there must be something we don't know about yet that stopped this from happening when the Universe was born.
All I’m saying is work with the facts at hand.
But you ignore the facts of what the article actually says. Working with the facts at hand does not mean that when there is incomplete knowledge of the facts we should conclude something for which there are no facts, that is, God or the Force or Consciousness or Will is at work. When things do not add up based on the facts at hand the reasonable thing to do is search for facts that are not at hand. This is why science has been so successful and theology has made such a dismal showing when it comes to the facts.
Mostly, I’m just don’t see how “free thinkers” can be so closed-minded; i.e., unwilling to let go of a failed or dead-end hypothesis.
What dead-end hypothesis? That something must have broken the symmetry of matter-antimatter? That whatever it is it is not a supernatural force or the Force? The article does not mention any hypothesis as to what it was. The only failed or dead-end hypothesis is the one theists have been touting, the one they are unwilling to let go of. There is no reason why science or “free thinkers” should suddenly abandon natural explanations given their unrivaled success in favor of the Force without a shred of evidence pointing to such a thing.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 8:50 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 7:55 pm
Dark Matter:
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
Really? You claimed that physics supports the idea that the universe should not exist. You posted a link in support of that claim. Only if you read the article that is not what it says. The symmetry problem does not say that the universe should not exist. What it says again is that:
"An asymmetry must exist here somewhere but we simply do not understand where the difference is. What is the source of the symmetry break?"

… there must be something we don't know about yet that stopped this from happening when the Universe was born.
All I’m saying is work with the facts at hand.
Exactly. So why close the door to any possibility simply because it doesn't comport with your preexisting beliefs?
But you ignore the facts of what the article actually says. Working with the facts at hand does not mean that when there is incomplete knowledge of the facts we should conclude something for which there are no facts, that is, God or the Force or Consciousness or Will is at work. When things do not add up based on the facts at hand the reasonable thing to do is search for facts that are not at hand. This is why science has been so successful and theology has made such a dismal showing when it comes to the facts.
I would argue that naturalism has been so successful that people have been hypnotized into believing it is the soul arbiter of truth. And now that the facts underpinning all of physics have proven to be indeterminate and counter-intuitive, I think it's about time people woke up to the implications of what we do know.
Mostly, I’m just don’t see how “free thinkers” can be so closed-minded; i.e., unwilling to let go of a failed or dead-end hypothesis.
What dead-end hypothesis? That something must have broken the symmetry of matter-antimatter? That whatever it is it is not a supernatural force or the Force? The article does not mention any hypothesis as to what it was. The only failed or dead-end hypothesis is the one theists have been touting, the one they are unwilling to let go of. There is no reason why science or “free thinkers” should suddenly abandon natural explanations given their unrivaled success in favor of the Force without a shred of evidence pointing to such a thing.
A growing number of scientists disagree.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 19th, 2018, 8:54 pm

Greta wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 6:00 pm
Steve3007 wrote:
July 19th, 2018, 3:32 am


I don't see how that has anything to do with stories which have headlines saying "the Universe shouldn't exist" and which are about such things as the predicted distribution of matter and anti-matter in models beings different to their distribution in reality and the consequent need to change the models to better fit reality.
Exactly.

When DM is defeated he reverts to random Twitter style put downs with almost nothing to do with the topic or the person at the end of the ad hominem.

Rather, it is clear that DM had zero idea what he was talking about when he shot off that line - it was just a mindless, reflexive hostile reaction to being proven wrong.

He know the truth, though - Dark Matter made a hasty and wildly wrong supposition that was corrected, and he simply wimped out. He simply lacked the character to admit being wrong.

It is time to put the arrow in the bullseye with this character ...

What he has done says much about theism and the scriptures. If adherents don't even have the strength of character to admit a little mistake on a little philosophy forum, then that demonstrates that their claims about religion's character-building qualities are false.

Religiosity no longer brings truthfulness as it once tended to do with the old pre-evangelist breed of believer, many of whom still toddle off the church on Sundays. They were sincere - they meant it. Today's religions are largely corrupt. Thus, if we find examples of theists of strong character then that is because they are inherently good, good enough not to be corrupted by their distorted creeds.

Today's evangelists are nothing more political beasts and seemingly almost largely amoral, certainly when it comes to dealing with non--Christians. I just dealt with a rabid Christian on another forum who, after spending YEARS complaining and bad-mouthing what he calls "secularists" on a daily basis, flatly denied that he complains about secularists. Other forum members were simply agog at the Trumpian shamelessness of it. It was akin to Trump denying that he was blonde while staring at the cameras with with windswept blonde locks.

It's as if words don't mean anything to these people so they don't worry about how they use them to manipulate others who take truthfulness seriously.

At the risk of perhaps throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it seems to me that religions have become exactly the opposite to what they intended and should ideally be discarded altogether over time. Rather than a means of transcendence religion has become a political conduit, one that chains people to the profane rather than lifting them above it.

When was the last time you saw a theist on a forum inspired and waxing lyrical over God's creation. Showing love for nature? Never, because they are too busy applauding Trump's attempts to remove as much untamed nature from the Earth as possible.

So religions are now now just politics. Right wing politics, claiming tax exemptions for their partisan gaming or society's moral systems. It fits the spirit of today's tendency towards rationalisation in industry where the soulfulness is removed for efficiency, leaving only an ugly shell, eg. pop music, architecture. In religions' case "efficiency" means bums on pews and, like (especially conservative) politicians, most seem happy to exploit the darkness of human nature to bring in the flock.
Don't you ever tire of spouting your hate and bias? All you're doing is preaching to the choir held captive by their own hate and biases.

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Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Fooloso4 » July 19th, 2018, 10:19 pm

Dark Matter:
Exactly. So why close the door to any possibility simply because it doesn't comport with your preexisting beliefs?
Because science deals with facts and evidence not supernatural speculation for which there is neither facts nor evidence. Why should they give preference to the possibilities you favor rather than the innumerable other possibilities that one might imagine?
And now that the facts underpinning all of physics have proven to be indeterminate and counter-intuitive, I think it's about time people woke up to the implications of what we do know.
This is another example of your spinning stories based on a misunderstanding of science. Quantum indeterminacy has to do with the problem of determining the exact position and momentum of an atomic particle. It does not mean that the facts underpinning all of physics have proven to be indeterminate. It is no surprise that things that are outside the world of our ordinary experience are counter-intuitive since such intuitions are formed from ordinary experience.
A growing number of scientists disagree.
Disagree with what? That something must have broken the symmetry of matter-antimatter? That whatever it is it is not a supernatural force or the Force? That theological speculation about the natural world is a dead end ? That there is no reason why science or “free thinkers” should suddenly abandon natural explanations?

What evidence do you have that a growing number of scientists disagree with whatever it is you claim they disagree with?

What scientific theories do they propose that include God as an explanation?

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