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Post Number:#31
August 18th, 2012, 5:05 pm
CaptainSpinoza wrote:Food for thought:
Not all concepts are defined in a dualistic way. Think of how we differentiate between colors. Its not a "good" or "bad", or a "light" or "dark" dualistic distinction, but a reduction of many, e.g. The color I perceive now is not red or blue or green or purple or orange or pink... I'll call it yellow. Yellow is therefore defined as the color that is not all the other colors. Dualism I think is an unfortunate concept to use sometimes as it gives the impression of either X or not X, which is not the case as shown above.
Did you know?
Post Number:#32
August 19th, 2012, 12:03 am
Granth wrote:"There is no limitless reality or reality that is limitless."
So you say. However, I word it this way. There is ONLY limitless Reality, which is nothing (or " The Great No Thing"), and there is nothing else. Limits are themselves constructs or fabrications (and confabulations).
Personal feeling experiences later supported in language (I guess for just bringing the left hemisphere more inline with the feeling experiences) by various authors, some of which were English interpreters of Zen and the Tao mainly but also other sciences and your input just tonight of the Jill Bolte recording. Her experience mirrored mine although without the brain haemorrhage.
That is impossible for you to know.
CaptainSpinoza wrote:Food for thought:
Not all concepts are defined in a dualistic way. Think of how we differentiate between colors. Its not a "good" or "bad", or a "light" or "dark" dualistic distinction, but a reduction of many, e.g. The color I perceive now is not red or blue or green or purple or orange or pink... I'll call it yellow. Yellow is therefore defined as the color that is not all the other colors. Dualism I think is an unfortunate concept to use sometimes as it gives the impression of either X or not X, which is not the case as shown above.
Post Number:#33
August 19th, 2012, 1:02 am
Post Number:#34
August 19th, 2012, 2:09 am
Granth wrote:Granth. "That is impossible for you to know."
Spectrum. "I thought that is very obvious. Whether it is Jill Bolte, Hui Neng, a meditator, a schizo or any monk, those 'enlightened' experience are always (100%) reported by a living person. A schizo or monk may have lost their sense of the ego-self, but there is still the living body, brain and mind. There is no such reports from the dead who came back as spirits."
Yes, but that is only a consideration for reporting an experience. I'm not saying that your proposition may not be a fact. I'm just saying that either you or anyone knowing it to be a fact is impossible. Remember, these people are reporting an experience only because they lived. It is my presumption that this experience could be an eternal one beyond the personality/bodies life (which is merely an aspect of life. A particular dimension of it). This transcendent experience has no time within it. It is dimension-less. So "eternal" just means that no sense of time is apparent. No left hemisphere activity means..... no time, no personalty, no body, no earth, no space and no universe. One IS the space. Nothing is apparent during this experience. It merely appears apparent only after a possible return to normal dualistic consciousness precisely BECAUSE dualistic consciousness is making a comparison between normal experience and other.
-- Updated August 19th, 2012, 1:41 am to add the following --
So I 'm not saying that you are wrong. I am only questioning your ability to know whether you are right or wrong on that. It's a speculation, is it not?
Post Number:#35
August 19th, 2012, 2:19 am
Post Number:#36
August 19th, 2012, 2:39 am
Spectrum wrote:
For me, it is not speculation. My basis is knowing is based on what I can know, known collectively and verifiable & justifiable collectively, i.e. consensus reality.
It may not be sufficient for you, but I don't think you can or will dispute my proposition, whatever the experience, it is grounded on a living person.
Post Number:#37
August 19th, 2012, 2:40 am
Neri wrote:Spectrum,
Although the examples you provide of what you call “dualistic perception” are quite meaningless, you seem to be grasping for the distinction between what is called representational realism and naive realism. The latter point of view holds that things in themselves are exactly as we experience them through the senses. For reasons that should be fairly obvious, no serious philosopher accepts this appraisal.
Representational realism holds that our sensations are only conscious representations that cannot be equated with things in themselves.
The real epistemological question is: To what extent (if at all) do our sensory experiences correspond, however indirectly, to the world as it really is?
Post Number:#38
August 19th, 2012, 2:44 am
Spectrum wrote:-. This tendency to arrive at some finality, certainty and conclusion is definitely psychology, re evolutionary psychology and its crude basis is the speculation of the existence of God as a closure as humans are not programmed and are very uncomfortable with uncertainty)
Post Number:#39
August 19th, 2012, 3:52 am
Granth wrote:
grounded in the person doing the reporting? However, the person who is reporting isn't necessarily grounded themselves (with the exception of Jill Bolte Taylor). Many have interpreted their "mystical" experience in very ungrounded ways. The person (the condition that is the personality) very much colors the experience. If one believes in a Christian God before having a transcendental experience will usually interpret such experience through their particular logic. Reportage will be as unreliable as reportage can be of knowable 3 dimensional events.
Granth wrote:
Nothing is final, only perception ends. The source of perception never ends.
It never begun. It always is.
Post Number:#40
August 19th, 2012, 6:43 am
Spectrum wrote:
Within waking consciousness, there can be many sub-layers of consciousness, of various degrees of alertness, drunk consciousness, drugged consciousness, brain damage consciousness, cosmic consciousness, unitary consciousness, etc.
In cosmic and unitary consciousness within waking consciousness, one may experience various 'mystical' experiences of oneness with the universe, etc.
These experiences are nevertheless grounded on a living person with a brain and mind, albeit supported with different neural connectivities.
There is no way, these cosmic unitary experiences can be independent of a living person with a brain and mind.
Spectrum wrote:
""Nothing is final, only perception ends. The source of perception never ends."
That is very true.
However did you notice, how you are trying to finalize your experiences as something independent of personalities and bodies and is eternal.
What I find difficult to agree is 'your attempting and trying to finalize' as there is no end to it.
Spectrum wrote:
"It never begun. It always is."
In the common sense and conventional perspective, there is an "It".
But in the ultimate sense, there is no inherent "it".
As such 'it always is' is difficult to swallow.
Why not say "Is is always is".
Granth wrote:
Explain OBE where there is a view of this "independent living person with a brain and mind" from a point in space outside of this person.
Trying to finalize what? I said NOTHING is final.
There is nothing. No it, nothing. Everything is an illusion. However, there is the source of everything. Everything comes from nothing, from source. Explain source? I can't. Explain nothing? I can't.
-- Updated August 19th, 2012, 6:48 am to add the following --
Or I can explain nothing. Here is my explanation between these brackets. ( )
-- Updated August 19th, 2012, 6:56 am to add the following --
It is only that your brain does not like this explanation. The brain loathes nothing. The brain wants to chatter, chatter, chatter. It fears nothing. In it's fear of nothing it wants to find noisy answers rather that silence. It wants analysis because the brain IS analysis. It is an action. The action of analyzing. It wants it's action to survive. Silence for the brain means death. Chattering analysis is a survival instinct, but in the final analysis THERE IS a final anslysis.
Post Number:#41
August 19th, 2012, 11:07 pm
Granth wrote:Explain OBE where there is a view of this "independent living person with a brain and mind" from a point in space outside of this person.
Research by Olaf Blanke in Switzerland found that it is possible to reliably elicit experiences somewhat similar to the OBE by stimulating regions of the brain called the right temporal-parietal junction (TPJ; a region where the temporal lobe and parietal lobe of the brain come together). Blanke and his collaborators in Switzerland have explored the neural basis of OBEs by showing that they are reliably associated with lesions in the right TPJ region[86] and that they can be reliably elicited with electrical stimulation of this region in a patient with epilepsy.[87] These elicited experiences may include perceptions of transformations of the patient's arms and legs (complex somatosensory responses) and whole-body displacements (vestibular responses).
Trying to finalize what? I said NOTHING is final.
It is only that your brain does not like this explanation. The brain loaths nothing. The brain wants to chatter, chatter, chatter. It fears nothing. In it's fear of nothing it wants to find noisy answers rather that silence. It wants analysis because the brain IS analysis. It is an action. The action of analyzing. It wants it's action to survive. Silence for the brain means death. Chattering analysis is a survival instinct, but in the final analysis THERE IS a final anslysis.
Post Number:#42
August 20th, 2012, 12:53 am
Spectrum wrote:
Btw, I have done a lot of research on OBEs and NDEs.
The latest on OBE that make it less subjective is the research from Olaf Blanke where they were able to induce OBEs within laboratory conditions.
I would recommend that every human experience OBE which would expand their range of consciousness.
Spectrum wrote:
In theory you know NOTHING is final, but yet you are trying to finalize.
That is the seduction of the natural reification module in one's brain.
Spectrum wrote:This is a good analysis.
Applying the analysis to your 'experience', your brain cannot accept that there is 'nothing' more to what is experienced by the self.
Experience is experience, there is nothing more to it.
But your brain/mind is insisting there is something that is independent of personalities and bodies and it is eternal.
Why? it is because your brain loaths nothing.
Post Number:#43
August 20th, 2012, 1:44 am
Granth wrote:
Sure. It does sound like a bit of fun. But what does this experiment say about the views we have from our everday normal experience? We presume that we exist only within the skull and body as if it is a building, and from this building look out through windows (eyes) at what we assume are external experience. External to a thing (individual process) we assume is our self. Does Blanke's experiment not tell us that our self is every phenomena one is experiencing?
Well, there is experience and then there is experience. Most experience is of a limited, very limited, variety. With regard to "something" that is independent of personality/body which is eternal?
The thing about perceptions of "eternal" is that the brain tries to grasp this as a concept. The brain tries to see "eternal" as something. As a conceptual thing to the extent that it conceives "eternal" as a period of time. But it is NO time. It is not some-thing therefore. It is never "independent" therefore.
Post Number:#44
August 20th, 2012, 4:22 am
Spectrum wrote:
Aaarh.. lost a good portion of my reply to the earlier section post.
Will rewrite when I get back the extra energy
Experience is limited because humans are fallible.
The illusion (A)* above is a good example of how experience is limited and deviated from a perspective of reality (B).
While B is truer than A, it does not imply that A is to be final or the absolute truth and note,
there is no absolute truth, there are only perspectives -Nietzsche.
It is a good move and possible to explore reality to the extent that there is no time, no space and transcending everything, but the point is we should not reify anything (WHOLE Consciousnes of WHATEVER) from this venture without proper qualifications, at the minimal that "we" have something to do with it, i.e. it cannot be totally independent of the self.
*airtightinteractive.com/2005/07/checker ... -illusion/
Post Number:#45
August 20th, 2012, 11:27 pm
Granth wrote:Whole Consciousness can be the experience. It requires a balanced brain. Both hemispheres in harmony with each other. All things arise within Consciousness, including "things" that are brained creatures, and then you have certain brained creatures which may become tuned with Consciousness.
An expression for this realization is Self Realization.
Two hemispheres of the brain of a creature where each hemisphere is relating consciously with the other hemisphere has created the circumstance of Relationship. It has become FULLY conscious. The brained creature no longer needs to look outside itself. It is now reflecting Consciousness within and without. It is now home.
Tat Twam Asi = In other words that Brahman which is the common Reality behind everything in the cosmos is the same as the essential Divinity, namely the Atman, within you. It is this identity which is the grand finale of Upanishadic teaching, according to Advaita. The realisation of this arises only by an intuitive experience and is totally different from any objective experience. It cannot be inferred from some other bit of knowledge. To comprehend the meaning an analysis of the three words in the pronouncement is needed.
Re: "space for others" This can be a bit of a trick for understanding the inherent philosophy. In Reality, there is no other. Only in fear of harmonious relationship is there the invention of otherness. "whenever there is other, fear arises". Two hemispheres experiencing harmonious relationship can no longer discern otherness. One is one with space, rather than the sensation of one within space (with accompanying sensations of feeling confronted by "others" that seem to be striving to share the same space). "Otherness" is our own personal condition for which we should take personal responsibilty for.
So to "make space for others" is to make mind space. The opening of mind. To see no other or others as other. After all, the concept of other is happening in one's own brain. So "making space for others" doesn't necessitate bringing in all sorts of bedraggled or otherwise strangers into one's physical home (or a sexual "other" into one's sexual life). But these things might be practiced by some (MOST) until they get the lesson. In the meantime we are DOING this lesson until we GET it.
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