Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
User avatar
Newme
Posts: 1401
Joined: December 13th, 2011, 1:21 am

Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Newme »

Mysterio448 wrote:
Newme wrote:I believe our beliefs are always subjective to some degree, and ideally, we responsibly choose beliefs that are the most healthy and productive, knowing that to some degree, we are wrong, no matter what we believe.
I agree with this idea completely. It has long been my belief that truth is not a destination but a journey. Thus one must always be seeking the truth; you can never fully find it. One problem with Christianity is that Christians believe they have found the truth, which means that they have stopped searching. Ceasing to search for the truth is like ceasing to move while on a moving treadmill; forward progress is the only means of stability. The belief that one has found truth is an illusion, causing one to venerate a truth-claim at the expense of the truth.
I like the analogy of being on a tread mill... it's fitting, because many people suffer when they refuse the constant subconscious call to search for truth (as they would fall on a treadmill if they stopped walking). Still, I also see some goodness in the journey of believing in Jesus as Savior. I do not believe as I did before, but I do see that believing in Jesus was not 100% harmful, but inspired some good also & I respect that in others to an extent.

As you mentioned, "the belief that one has found truth is an illusion" - but that also goes for Atheism or any other group thought that wants to do all the thinking for you. Discovering truth is a life-long process and as we've agreed, we never fully find it... YET... if we allow the knowledge of our ignorance to paralyze us, what good are we for? We must exercise some faith - or trust in what we think, feel and then act on it.

Basically, it comes down to what is functional to believe? What inspires one to do good, even when what is truly good changes with each circumstance and moment? IMO, there are much more serious battles to be fought than the coping method of religion. There are much more dangerous coping methods - like ignorance regarding poverty & other harms, addictions that ruin lives (which arguably is sometimes religiously-oriented). It's about moderation. A study revealed that of 3 groups, 2 did worse in physical healing - those who had NO religious affiliation & those who were VERY involved religiously. The group that did best were those who were moderately involved religiously. Metaphysics, the placebo effect and Jesus :wink: teach "as a man thinketh in his heart so is he." Personally, I try to take the good in any book, doctrine, etc.,, and leave the rest.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13818
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Belinda »

Enegue wrote:
OR ...

... those who offer up the sacrifice that Jesus became (the spotless lamb), are demonstrating by doing so that they recognise their contribution to human suffering (sin=behaviour contrary to God's principles of life), that they are sorry they hadn't recognised it sooner (as it would have undone much suffering), and that they want to be included in a kingdom where God dwells, and where Jesus rules according His principles of life, where they will be participants in wiping away all tears, and preventing death and sorrow and pain, and bringing to an end the former things of which such conditions were part.

Entry into that kingdom begins the moment the person's heart has been enlightened to this. It's all so simple, that some people miss it entirely.
That is fine, Enegue, except that if you persist in a literal interpretation while ignoring metaphorical interpretation you will lose people who cannot believe in miracles.
Socialist
enegue
Posts: 1950
Joined: September 4th, 2009, 8:18 am
Favorite Philosopher: God
Location: Australia

Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by enegue »

Belinda wrote:enegue said:
OR ...

... those who offer up the sacrifice that Jesus became (the spotless lamb), are demonstrating by doing so that they recognise their contribution to human suffering (sin=behaviour contrary to God's principles of life), that they are sorry they hadn't recognised it sooner (as it would have undone much suffering), and that they want to be included in a kingdom where God dwells, and where Jesus rules according His principles of life, where they will be participants in wiping away all tears, and preventing death and sorrow and pain, and bringing to an end the former things of which such conditions were part.

Entry into that kingdom begins the moment the person's heart has been enlightened to this. It's all so simple, that some people miss it entirely.


That is fine, Enegue, except that if you persist in a literal interpretation while ignoring metaphorical interpretation you will lose people who cannot believe in miracles.
I don't ignore metaphorical interpretation. Lot's can be learned from looking at things from different perspectives, but it's all so safe, and all so comfortable. It doesn't challenge you to want to have anything about yourself changed in a permanent way. Metaphorical interpretation is the sort of thing that leads to New Year resolutions: a good idea at the time, but after a week or two, you are happy to let them go.

A literal interpretation that says, GOD IS NOT DEAD, is NOT safe and is NOT comfortable. You won't get any peace about your short comings, you won't be content to keep them under wraps for two weeks and then let them have their head for the next fifty. You will discover another source of peace, though, one that is way more satisfying, one that comes from the realisation that, SINCE every act counter to God's principles of life (sin), sets in motion a sequence of events that will bear fruit of discontent, not only in your own life, but in the lives of everyone that your sin touches, THEN your self-restraint WILL BE THEIR SALVATION (from the discontent that you would otherwise have rained down upon them).

If your philosophy doesn't expose your contentedness with safety and comfort, and cause you to want to shake it off for the sake of your children and your children's children, then, yes, you do indeed need a miracle.

Cheers and God bless,
enegue
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13818
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Belinda »

Enegue wrote regarding metaphorical interpretation:
It doesn't challenge you to want to have anything about yourself changed in a permanent way. Metaphorical interpretation is the sort of thing that leads to New Year resolutions: a good idea at the time, but after a week or two, you are happy to let them go.
Not true for me even if true for Enegue. I am accustomed to poetry the best of which yields levels of interpretation from the indispensible literal interpretation, e.g . an actual rose, through psychological, sociological and political interpretations. I have increased my thinking and feeling abilities through poetry and I would not want to revert to what I was before I learned and interpreted certain poems. Poems and The Bible, it's all literature; we are not at this juncture discussing The Bible or any poem as an historical or a scientific source, we are discussing uses of metaphor.

The Sick Rose



O Rose, thou art sick!


The invisible worm


That flies in the night,


In the howling storm,




Has found out thy bed


Of crimson joy:


And his dark secret love


Does thy life destroy.




William Blake
Socialist
User avatar
Newme
Posts: 1401
Joined: December 13th, 2011, 1:21 am

Re: Christianity and the logic of sacrifice

Post by Newme »

Most Christians consider Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat (though they don’t like anyone pointing that out). They take it all so literally and lose the spirit (symbolic meaning). Though i can understand the personification of Jesus Christ is easier to relate to than an abastract idea of God as Spirit. Still, if you look at the symbol of Jesus having been persecuted and killed for his defense of speaking politically incorrect truths - there are different bits of wisdom that could be derived. Most obviously - defending free speech in being the catalyst for needed improvement - even to death, as others like Socrates did.

I wonder from where the human sacrifice idea came. In a way, Socrates and others who died for a cause they believed in - sacrificed themselves. But to pretend a loving God who had said, “Thou shalt not kill” demands human sacrifice killing in order to appease his supposed demand that humanity be different than how God created them - makes no sense. Based on the Catholic councils - it seems so much was added or edited how they wanted, centuries after the facts. Was it just sick literal thoughts - maybe to somehow make people feel subservient to the Church? Depend on Jesus for your salvation - which the church represents. Or were they using metaphors to teach symbolic truths? If the latter - what’s the meaning? I get the dark night and shadow (ie depression) as the pain in the garden of gethsemane and maybe the cross. But what about sacrificing oneself - maybe giving up (sacrificing) dysfunctional parts... or maybe it represents actual inevitable eventual death - and giving up one’s body.

Personally I don’t like seeing Jesus portrayed as dying on a cross. Yet, some say that the reason Jesus on a cross is so often moving to many is because it represents the pain body in each of us. Jesus - or rather Christ - represents all of the good and suffering humans are capable of. Maybe in that sense - Christ serves as a symbol of compassion for all humanity.

But there’s something more - and deeper that I imagine the symbol of Christ represents. The resurrection is also like being spiritually (& maybe physically) born again, and again... Positive disintegration is rare. There’s too often a temptation to avoid emotional pain. But as with the parable of Christ’s birth, through painful labor, life is brought forth.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021