You could not have introduced the topic of 'Phlogiston' better if you had tried.Atreyu wrote:I see I need to get the thread back on track by restating the historical definition of the "soul".
The soul is the finer matter/energy which differentiates a living organism from non-living matter.
This "finer" matter/energy is beyond the direct investigation of science, just as any individual subatomic particle is, and, again, just as in the case of bosons, their existence is inferred by certain phenomena, in this case, 'life'. Obviously, there must be something present in life which is not present in non-life, in spite of the fact that it cannot be normally perceived, otherwise there would be no clear dualism between 'life' and 'non-life' in our direct experience in the first place.
But there clearly is...
So what is the soul?
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Re: So what is the soul?
- Sy Borg
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Re: So what is the soul?
Is there a true dualism between life and non life, or is that a perspective effect? Maybe the nonliving are merely relatively dormant?Atreyu wrote:I see I need to get the thread back on track by restating the historical definition of the "soul".
The soul is the finer matter/energy which differentiates a living organism from non-living matter.
This "finer" matter/energy is beyond the direct investigation of science, just as any individual subatomic particle is, and, again, just as in the case of bosons, their existence is inferred by certain phenomena, in this case, 'life'. Obviously, there must be something present in life which is not present in non-life, in spite of the fact that it cannot be normally perceived, otherwise there would be no clear dualism between 'life' and 'non-life' in our direct experience in the first place.
But there clearly is...
If the stuff of the soul is spirit, and if spirit is a tendency to be a certain way, and if those tendencies were built on the interactions between chemicals (with their own tendencies) and their EM, then what we have fundamentally are fractal layers of relationships built upon each other. Something like ITT, with information - patterns that form out of the chaos - being the stuff of the soul.
If there is a finer granularity where the patterns of now are preserved beyond death, that would involve other dimensions that would probably require a much more powerful machine than the LHC to detect.
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Re: So what is the soul?
What exactly would be counter to science?Chili wrote:The way biology and chemistry work is that they are built on physics. There isn't presumed to be anything going on there that contradicts the view of the same atoms and molecules from physics. If it could be demonstrated that there were, this would be a blow to physics and the fundamental model would have to be adjusted. The fact that the relationship between organisms and environment is *complex* doesn't mean it isn't built on a mountain of individual particle interactions - simple mechanistic unidirectional processes. Complexity out of simplicity - is this what you refer to? Or is "complexity" you refer to something more pixie dust bordering on religion? You are expressing many beliefs here which run counter to science and I wonder if you are aware of them.
You have an outdated mechanistic view of materialism, obsolete for almost a couple of centuries. Surely nature responds to physics, but it isn't comprised only of particle systems, there are different levels of organization of matter & energy and their interactions conform structured systems with internal and external interdependencies (as part of macrosystems). The elements of a system respond to variables which change within ranges, some more predictable than others. At the level of organisms, which implies a wide diversity of systems, both in their environment and themselves, the number of possible interactions, of inputs and outputs, is practically impossible to determine. Just the number of connections of the human brain reach the trillions. Besides, living systems are open systems, they add more levels of complexity because the interdependencies between organisms and their environments create stimulus-response scenarios, which create multiple flows of possible behaviors, which alter the environment and the ever-changing cycle goes on.
And by the way, let me laugh at the idea that anything complex could be "bordering on religion". Woo woo is not complexity, just incoherent nonsense.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: So what is the soul?
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Re: So what is the soul?
I never even suggested such a thing. Life evolved from the simplest forms to the most complex. The whole is made from the parts and the parts relate to the whole. Bigger systems are comprised of smaller systems. The higher the levels of complexity, the higher the levels of indeterminacy. Nothing of this points at something different than what I said.Chili wrote:You seem to believe that the complexity does not arise from simplicity. Laugh away.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: So what is the soul?
I'm talking about reductionism - in which everything seemingly complex which is occurring at this moment is described as actually being composed of innumerable simple interactions.Count Lucanor wrote:I never even suggested such a thing. Life evolved from the simplest forms to the most complex. The whole is made from the parts and the parts relate to the whole. Bigger systems are comprised of smaller systems. The higher the levels of complexity, the higher the levels of indeterminacy. Nothing of this points at something different than what I said.Chili wrote:You seem to believe that the complexity does not arise from simplicity. Laugh away.
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Re: So what is the soul?
I cannot subscribe to such view. Some systems, especially non-living systems, may be reduced to simple interactions, but many others don't, because the outcomes of their processes at any intermediate level of complexity define the courses of action of other processes and the system as a whole, and the smaller basic elements are not key variables.Chili wrote: I'm talking about reductionism - in which everything seemingly complex which is occurring at this moment is described as actually being composed of innumerable simple interactions.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: So what is the soul?
If one were to remove each molecule from your body, there would be some matter left?Count Lucanor wrote:I cannot subscribe to such view. Some systems, especially non-living systems, may be reduced to simple interactions, but many others don't, because the outcomes of their processes at any intermediate level of complexity define the courses of action of other processes and the system as a whole, and the smaller basic elements are not key variables.Chili wrote: I'm talking about reductionism - in which everything seemingly complex which is occurring at this moment is described as actually being composed of innumerable simple interactions.
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Re: So what is the soul?
Isn't that what happens when a living being dies and its body decays? The matter just goes somewhere else, reabsorbed by the environment, which is matter itself.Chili wrote:If one were to remove each molecule from your body, there would be some matter left?Count Lucanor wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
I cannot subscribe to such view. Some systems, especially non-living systems, may be reduced to simple interactions, but many others don't, because the outcomes of their processes at any intermediate level of complexity define the courses of action of other processes and the system as a whole, and the smaller basic elements are not key variables.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: So what is the soul?
I enjoyed your well-written post. I have lived a similar journey and have found that there are many who share your general orientation. Thanks! Tsp1545
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Re: So what is the soul?
One; (T)Here exists One Universal Consciousness!Vijaydevani wrote:So what is the soul?
(T)Here is nowhere in the entire Universe that is not Consciousness!
We are all unique (Conscious) Perspectives (Souls), perceiving the One (unchanging, ALL inclusive) Universe/Truth/Reality.. Self!!
(T)Here exists a single unique Soul to uniquely perceive that bit of Reality before it.
(T)Here is no 'human soul', there are practically infinite Souls in the space presently occupied by this body, and the sun, and rocks and space. It is ego/thought that imagines 'being and ownership', vanity.
Size of one Soul = one Planck volume!
'Duration' of one Soul; one Planck moment! One such moment is not a measure of 'time' (there is none) but it is a single unit of perception, a 'percept'!
Now you can begin to understand what a Soul is.
Tat Tvam Asi
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023