Defining God

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Lucylu
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Defining God

Post by Lucylu »

Lately, I have been considering how 'God' came to be perceived as an entity or being, other than us.

The best I can surmise, is:

Abstract thought is a great gift but we became overwhelmed and inadvertently turned it back on itself, creating a concrete being out of the abstract, because that's ultimately more palatable. Over time this has become 'God'.

It has taken on a life of its own- like a well loved character in a play. People speak and even think of God as if 'He' is a conscious being. 'God would do x, God would be pleased with y' etc.

Maybe abstract thought is actually a burden? Is it leaving us susceptible to delusions and mental illness?
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
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LuckyR
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Re: Defining God

Post by LuckyR »

The origin of god? Well I wasn't there at the time the first human came up with the idea, but I am a student of human nature.

It doesn't take a lot of imagination to surmise that way, way back when some guy was stronger, more charismatic and smarter than anyone else around. Well that guy is king.

But what if you are smarter but are a weakling and ugly? He can't be king, but he can convince the rabble that he is the sole earthy conduit of a King in the sky that no one else can see.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Defining God

Post by Sy Borg »

Lucylu wrote:Maybe abstract thought is actually a burden? Is it leaving us susceptible to delusions and mental illness?
I think we need to bear in mind how long humans have been capable of abstract thought. Maybe 100,000 years at best? Even that's not much in evolutionary time, where attributes of species evolve and refine over millions of years. That would mean our level of abstract thought is quite rough, with much refinement in the future, if civilisation holds up.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Defining God

Post by Hereandnow »

Granted, the manufacturing of 'god', the concept, while certainly, if you will, reified by familiarity and tradition (and all the rest), dissimulates the real. You are right, it creates an illusion, but what is it covering? What is the core condition, the bare essence of religion, or, the primal condition that has given rise the concept? Now that is an interesting question. Who really cares, after all, about all of that medieval foolishness. Wipe the slate clean, do (Husserl) an epoche, then see what the question of god and religion is really about. If you think nothing at all; well, you not looking very hard.
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Lacewing
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Re: Defining God

Post by Lacewing »

Rather than facing infinity and abstract thinking and "not knowing"... it seems to me that bringing a God concept "down" to our limited and condensed physical level enabled us to create a comfortable and reassuring box... one in which we can build up whole worlds that provide "answers", calm fears, bolster ideas of personal importance or rightness, and facilitate control over large groups of people. It may not have started out with ill intentions, but our creative curiosity can't seem to help itself from seeing how many ways things can be twisted and reinforced to please ourselves.
Lucylu wrote:Maybe abstract thought is actually a burden? Is it leaving us susceptible to delusions and mental illness?
I think it can be a real challenge -- especially if someone doesn't have some kind of balancing energy to go with it. Such a balancing energy might be more fluid and calm than what our world typically maintains. Like the energy of nature. Non expectant... non demanding. Natural belonging. No boundaries. Without that, abstract thought might seem fractured if continually bashing up against a concrete world.

It's an interesting choice: the delusions of an overly established and structured world/mindset vs. the potential instability of letting go of that. I'm guessing that the attunement of ones spirit energy (energy which is not confined to the physical body) is a crucial navigation system to develop. If we think we are just physical bodies reinforced by structures and ideas, then we will likely be very brittle when structures fail and ideas change. If, however, we focus on shedding the built-up layers that obscure our spirit energy (without creating new layers in the process), we could likely discover our source of naturally balanced energy that has no dependence on specific structures or ideas.

That's my guess! :D
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Felix
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Re: Defining God

Post by Felix »

Lately, I have been considering how 'God' came to be perceived as an entity or being, other than us.

It's simple really, it's very difficult to invite an impersonal God to tea....or even locate them for that matter.

-- Updated Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:34 pm to add the following --

I guess we can no longer edit our posts? Anyway, the first sentmce to wit I replied was from Lucylu....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Lambert
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Re: Defining God

Post by Lambert »

Hereandnow wrote:Granted, the manufacturing of 'god', the concept, while certainly, if you will, reified by familiarity and tradition (and all the rest), dissimulates the real. You are right, it creates an illusion, but what is it covering? What is the core condition, the bare essence of religion, or, the primal condition that has given rise the concept? Now that is an interesting question. Who really cares, after all, about all of that medieval foolishness. Wipe the slate clean, do (Husserl) an epoche, then see what the question of god and religion is really about. If you think nothing at all; well, you not looking very hard.
What is the reason behind religion? To enjoy the benefits of heaven on earth and that is shared by all. If the reward in heaven is tenfold it will be in the illumination of our conscious mind. That is what sages etc. are all about, and actually is what Plato referred to in his 7th Epistle 341C, with the words:
Surely it is by no means verbal, as other modes of learning are. It rather emerges in the soul on a sudden from much emergent dwelling and living with the matter itself, as something set alight by a leaping fire and forthwith nourishing itself.
I am just pointing at the end he saw that was also real for him, for which the word syzen means "being one with the pragma" seen that we call heaven on earth. They also have par-ousia and syn-ousia when the Final Form is seen and either is actualized in philotic love or is not, at least not yet, and beyond that is not his to say, but is where experience (empeiria) means "in' for him and 'out' for us (as it makes reference to the Universal not home to us).
Fooloso4
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Re: Defining God

Post by Fooloso4 »

I think God emerged from the gods. Rather than abstract thought it was the very real experience of the forces of nature and the attempt to find favor with them. The imagination also played a part in the creation of unseen forces and entities, which could inhabit or become the gods of a person, a family, a people. As they came in conflict with others so did their gods, and with this claims of the superiority of one’s own gods over others, the true god, the only god.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Defining God

Post by Hereandnow »

I don't buy any of the above. i don't know about heaven and the sages and gods, but there is not much philosophy in this. But I certainly do not hold any reductionist view that says god is a product of the human imagination in history. I say, rather, take the issue to its Real grounding and let the world tell us what god is about. The first thing to go is god the human agent that wills, thinks, watches, etc.--no good reason to believe this. Never has been. It's a medieval relic.


But what is Real is this cup on the table. Here is where the material basis for god is to be found. But this argument is only for interested parties.
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Atreyu
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Re: Defining God

Post by Atreyu »

My definition of "God" is rather simple and concrete, as it is based on my cosmological view that the Universe Itself is a Conscious entity, a living Being.

Therefore, I would define "God" as the Universe. God is the Universe, but, unlike the popular contemporary view, this Universe is more than a gigantic collection of non-living matter and mindless energy....
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Felix
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Re: Defining God

Post by Felix »

The question posed presumes that mankind's conception of God was a mental fabrication rather than an interpretation of direct experience. As Jung, William James, Campbell, et. al., have documented, similar conceptions of Gods/Goddesses appear in all cultures throughout the ages, and these entities may be encountered in altered states of awareness, dreams, etc. Perhaps the real burden of abstract thought is that it tends to desiccate our experience so that we lose our innate sense of child-like wonder and affection for Life and come to believe it is only what the latest scientific theories profess it to be. That too is a dangerous and destructive form of religious fundamentalism.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
edelker
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Re: Defining God

Post by edelker »

Felix wrote,
“The question posed presumes that mankind's conception of God was a mental fabrication rather than an interpretation of direct experience.”

I don’t much agree with anything that has been written above, so I don’t wish to merely critique Felix. However, I think this post is a good departure for my own view.


One, as one who is committed to skepticism, why ought we think that any god concept is anything more than a mental-conceptual thing? Given this question, it matters little if the concept is a type of mental thing (abstract concept) or a mental interpretation of some direct experience. In either case, the concept or notion seems to remain incurably vague and indecipherable.


Two, the impenetrability of the concept and the utter absence of agreement of interpretation is openly exhibited in your very comments,

“As Jung, William James, Campbell, et. al., have documented, similar conceptions of Gods/Goddesses appear in all cultures throughout the ages, and these entities may be encountered in altered states of awareness, dreams, etc”

Indeed, and yet, not one set of these cultures agreed on which conception(s) are correct, and no small number of them argued and fought bloody wars for such theological correctness.


Felix wrote,

“Perhaps the real burden of abstract thought is that it tends to desiccate our experience so that we lose our innate sense of child-like wonder and affection for Life and come to believe it is only what the latest scientific theories profess it to be.”

Or, maybe abstract thoughts or concepts are NOT all the same. Also, I’m utterly baffled as to why the testable-proven models found in science are somehow robbing us of our child-like wonder. The exact OPPOSITE is actually true. Mathematics as applied to physics, for example, opens us up to an entire Cosmos of understanding and exploration, while other forms of spiritual thought and asserted insights cause confusion, bitterness, hate, and fear.



Felix wrote,

“That too is a dangerous and destructive form of religious fundamentalism.”

Last time I checked, it wasn’t the scientific community and evidenced based movements that were running around slaughtering their fellow man and pushing their unfounded dogmas on the minds of men. If one wishes to be “spiritual” that’s fine, but don’t blame science for getting the method of how we prove assertions concerning reality correct.


Eric D.
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Lucylu
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Re: Defining God

Post by Lucylu »

Hereandnow wrote:You are right, it creates an illusion, but what is it covering? What is the core condition, the bare essence of religion, or, the primal condition that has given rise the concept? Now that is an interesting question.
Exactly! I believe the essence is simply life or the 'life force'. The unknown force which keeps growing, and recovering and flourishing in nature. But it is hard to describe or quantify, and I didn't really want to get side tracked with 'what is God'? What I'm getting at (I think) is that as we developed increased mental abilities, we became overwhelmed, like computers that don't have enough memory. Maybe we don't have the capacity to cope with the extra powers of perception.
Greta wrote:Maybe 100,000 years at best? Even that's not much in evolutionary time, where attributes of species evolve and refine over millions of years. That would mean our level of abstract thought is quite rough, with much refinement in the future, if civilisation holds up.
I'm wondering if religion was always going to be an inevitable side effect of abstract thought. Perhaps it could be seen as a sort of ailment or neurosis which we, as humans, are prone to and which we will always have to strengthen ourselves against and be vigilant of. Much like any obsessive, compulsive behaviour.

If we are capable of abstract thought and self consciousness, and feel that our existence is difficult, even unbearable at times, it would seem natural to try to latch on to concrete ideas, like life rafts. Perhaps the wars that we see caused by seemingly petty differences, are just people being unable to face abstract thought and their own 'power' as humans, if you like. They fight to the death for what is concrete, even though it is just symbolic. Are they just fighting themselves, in a way? It must be easier to behave like an animal, if being human is too much and I cant see it ever being easy.

Will increasing communication and education be enough to learn to manage our minds?
Felix wrote:The question posed presumes that mankind's conception of God was a mental fabrication rather than an interpretation of direct experience. As Jung, William James, Campbell, et. al., have documented, similar conceptions of Gods/Goddesses appear in all cultures throughout the ages, and these entities may be encountered in altered states of awareness, dreams, etc.
Its true that we may all have created similar conceptions of Gods but maybe that is just due to how our brains are predisposed to see in certain ways, just as babies are predisposed to recognise human faces. I'm not saying their isn't a 'God' essence and that we shouldn't be thankful for it and remain as wondrous as children, but I'm wondering if we were destined to create religions and form out of the abstract idea of God, because it is just too awesome for our little ape minds.
Lacewing wrote:If we think we are just physical bodies reinforced by structures and ideas, then we will likely be very brittle when structures fail and ideas change. If, however, we focus on shedding the built-up layers that obscure our spirit energy (without creating new layers in the process), we could likely discover our source of naturally balanced energy that has no dependence on specific structures or ideas.
Lacewing wrote:Like the energy of nature. Non expectant... non demanding. Natural belonging. No boundaries. Without that, abstract thought might seem fractured if continually bashing up against a concrete world.
I'm hoping that what seems like weaknesses now are created because we have not managed our strengths properly. You're right that a natural balance needs to be maintained otherwise entropy of one kind or another will occur. It seems like such a huge task, but manageable if we all take responsibility for one person each- ourselves! 8)
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
Fanman
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Re: Defining God

Post by Fanman »

God's existence is not a negative, given that there is evidence of his existence; neither can the non-existence of God be demonstrated. Therefore, God's existence is a positive meaning that God does exist, given that there is evidence of his existence. Abstract thought cannot be said to be accountable for evidential claims of God's existence, because the evidence God's existence is usually found within the reality of experienced life. Unless experiential evidence is going to be absolutely discounted – which no one can actually do in reality.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Fooloso4
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Re: Defining God

Post by Fooloso4 »

Fanman:

God's existence is not a negative
You have used this locution repeatedly but it is meaningless, as is the claim that God’s existence is a positive. I understand what led to this way of trying to say that God exists, but it defies the logic of English grammar. Existence is not the subject and does not take predicates. Something either exists or does not exist, it does not exist positively or negatively.
Unless experiential evidence is going to be absolutely discounted
The problem is not that experiential evidence is going to be absolutely discounted but that what any individual claims to have experienced is not sufficient to stand as evidence that the experience is of anything other than a product of his or her mind. This is not to absolutely discount experiential evidence but to judge each claim on a case by case basis.
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