Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Steve3007
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Steve3007 »

Yes, the parallels between real stars and celebrity stars is an interesting one to follow.

Very massive real stars, after they've blown off lots of gas and become a small dense core, often spin around very fast too. Actually, I can't see any obvious parallel there. Skip that one.

-- Updated Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:01 pm to add the following --

I do like the idea of celebrity supernovae exploding and spreading out the heavy elements from which life is made. (The whole Joni Mitchell "we are stardust" thing.)

I guess when Elvis "exploded" bits of him got almost everywhere. For example, I read once that the number of Elvis impersonators in Japan is increasing exponentially such that, if current trends continue, by 2050 every single man, woman and child in Japan will be an Elvis impersonator. And the economy will collapse. I don't know if the Japanese government plan to address this issue.
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote:Yes, the parallels between real stars and celebrity stars is an interesting one to follow.

Very massive real stars, after they've blown off lots of gas and become a small dense core, often spin around very fast too. Actually, I can't see any obvious parallel there. Skip that one.
I think Charlie Sheen might be an example of a neutron star. Or Brittney Spears. Diminished, but still a force and engaged in fevered activity that doesn't seem to achieve much.
Steve3007 wrote:I do like the idea of celebrity supernovae exploding and spreading out the heavy elements from which life is made. (The whole Joni Mitchell "we are stardust" thing.)
Or Carl Sagan and Neil deGrasse Tyson in Cosmos - "we are made of star stuff". Yes, memes have some interesting metaphorical links with genes, but way faster and more volatile.
Steve3007 wrote:I guess when Elvis "exploded" bits of him got almost everywhere. For example, I read once that the number of Elvis impersonators in Japan is increasing exponentially such that, if current trends continue, by 2050 every single man, woman and child in Japan will be an Elvis impersonator. And the economy will collapse. I don't know if the Japanese government plan to address this issue.
Hilarious! I'm sure there's a natural limit of Elvisness (Elvisity?), though.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Theophane »

Belinda wrote:
Theophane wrote:The appearance of false Christs is a fulfillment of Scripture. (Matthew 24:24)
There is one false Christ in Syria and Iraq who tells lies to get certain youngish people to go there to kill and be killed.
Tash-lan? Chris-lam?

-- Updated April 9th, 2015, 10:58 am to add the following --

Steve3007:
Theopane:

I'm interested to know: Do you believe that Jesus really will come back to Earth one day?
Yes, however I don't buy into all this End Times hysteria you see everywhere. The Second Coming is the end the world. Destruction of Earth. Impossible to miss or mistake for anything else. I often think about my own death and what will be like, but my imagination fails me. Better to focus on the here-and-now, anyway. What will happen will happen, when it happens.
I've gathered that a lot of people do apparently believe that. But I've honestly never managed to convince myself that they really do believe it. It just seems to me such a bizarre idea that I've always suspected that, deep down, everyone realizes it's just a story.
Those suspicions are probably going to continue. Even if you ask them point-blank and then doubt what they say.
Steve3007
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Steve3007 »

Theopane:
Yes, however I don't buy into all this End Times hysteria you see everywhere. The Second Coming is the end the world. Destruction of Earth. Impossible to miss or mistake for anything else.
I have very little knowledge of such things, but isn't that what the whole "End Times" thing is about? Destruction of the Earth etc? I don't know what is literally meant by "destruction of the Earth", or whether any other planets will be destroyed with it.
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Atreyu »

Steve3007 wrote: I have very little knowledge of such things, but isn't that what the whole "End Times" thing is about? Destruction of the Earth etc? I don't know what is literally meant by "destruction of the Earth", or whether any other planets will be destroyed with it.
What it actually refers to is the End of a "Time", or an "Age", to be replaced by a new Time or Age. It originally was parallel to the ancient idea (Mayan and Eastern) of various "Ages" of around 2200 years or so which are defined by the relative positions of various constellations of stars to the Solar System. So the "End Times" originally meant the "End of the Age of Pisces", to be replaced (in 2012) by the "Age of Aquarius". And the ancient Christian mystics related this idea to their idea of the "return of Christ". This idea was never intended to designate any absolute END per se.

I was raised by evangelical "holy rollers", and I remember that at church everyone generally regarded "the End Times" as a sort of latter period of this "Age" where man lived "without God". It was a time of change and strife which heralded the collapse of all these "godless civilizations" to be replaced by a new civilization or general Order in which God directly ruled over the world (people)....
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Belinda »

Steve3007 wrote:Yes, I see the parallels. I guess there's also the parallel in that he was arguably destroyed by society.

I guess Don Maclean saw the same parallel with Buddy Holly when he wrote American Pie. That seems to be about the loss of innocence of the early Rock 'n' Roll years symbolized by Buddy Holly's martyrdom and usurpation by Dylan!
I was hearing that "American Pie" lyrics are to be all explained when the hand written manuscript is sold at auction.Or something.
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Steve3007
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Steve3007 »

Thanks for that insight Atreyu. I've sometimes attempted to look up these kinds of things but never seem to get a consistent story. Different people appear to believe many different versions. So I'm still not clear if there is a general consensus as to what is actually going to happen.

From what you've said, I can't help thinking of the humerous idea of God shouting "don't make me come down there!" and finally losing His patience and coming stomping down here muttering under His breath: "For god's sake, if you want something doing properly you've got to do it yourself."

But, seriously, the prediction that you describe your evangelical "holy roller" upbringing as making seems to suggest some way in which God will be directly telling us all what to do. Also it seems strikingly similar to the ostensibly non-religious predictions of people like Marx, predicting similar periods of political disorder leading up to some kind of utopian ideal. (In his case, global communism.)

-- Updated Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:32 am to add the following --

Belinda:
I was hearing that "American Pie" lyrics are to be all explained when the hand written manuscript is sold at auction.Or something.
Yes, I head that on the radio a couple of days ago. But apparently those handwritten lyrics don't explain much. It is clear though that "the jester" in the lines:

While the king was looking down,

The jester stole his thorny crown.

was supposed to be Bob Dylan. And I guess the thorny crown clearly makes Buddy Holly Jesus.
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Belinda »

It's a super song. One wants it to mean something. :)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote:From what you've said, I can't help thinking of the humerous idea of God shouting "don't make me come down there!" and finally losing His patience and coming stomping down here muttering under His breath: "For god's sake, if you want something doing properly you've got to do it yourself."
A pedantic correction but I think God would have said "For my sake, if you want something done ...". After all, it would be a silly scenario otherwise ...
Steve3007 wrote:But, seriously, the prediction that you describe your evangelical "holy roller" upbringing as making seems to suggest some way in which God will be directly telling us all what to do. Also it seems strikingly similar to the ostensibly non-religious predictions of people like Marx, predicting similar periods of political disorder leading up to some kind of utopian ideal. (In his case, global communism.)
What I see is a serious culling of human numbers by Mother Nature that will greatly excite the end-of-all-things crowd. It is actually a serious issue. Our prime minister is a fundamentalist Christian and has been staunchly anti-environment with his policies. Given that at one stage during conversation with life Clive had said it would be a good thing for God to sweep away our spoiled and decaying natural systems and I wondered if our PM's anti-environment stance comes from an interest in seeing the apocalypse happen sooner rather than later to usher in heavenly rule.

I've been encouraged to see some religious groups get behind environmental care, but there ate influential fundies thinking very differently.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Steve3007
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Steve3007 »

Belinda:
It's a super song. One wants it to mean something.
Yes, I think it's funny that we so often want things to mean something deep and profound. It's especially useful if they strike just that right balance between being completely vague and open to interpretation but sounding like they must mean something. Eg:

Question: How many roads must a man walk down?

Answer: 42!

Apart from The Hitch-hiker's Guide the the Galaxy, my standard reference for these kinds of phenomena is "The Life of Brian". I like the scene where Brian is trying to run away from a crowd of admirers and loses one of his shoes, so the crowd see this as a sign and all decide, henceforth, to walk with only one shoe. They generally try to interpret everything Brian says or does as a deep symbol of something. When you see the stories of things like the Taliban imprisoning men for not having a beard the same length as Muhammad's you realise that this supposed satire is actually an understatement of the madness of humanity.

Greta:
A pedantic correction but I think God would have said "For my sake, if you want something done ...". After all, it would be a silly scenario otherwise ...
Thank you for that correction. It renders the story entirely plausible. Although, do you think "my" should be capitalized? Like "God" and "Him"? We may need to consult a theological authority on that one.
What I see is a serious culling of human numbers by Mother Nature that will greatly excite the end-of-all-things crowd. It is actually a serious issue. Our prime minister is a fundamentalist Christian and has been staunchly anti-environment with his policies. Given that at one stage during conversation with life Clive had said it would be a good thing for God to sweep away our spoiled and decaying natural systems and I wondered if our PM's anti-environment stance comes from an interest in seeing the apocalypse happen sooner rather than later to usher in heavenly rule.

I've been encouraged to see some religious groups get behind environmental care, but there ate influential fundies thinking very differently.
I hadn't realized the Australian PM was that much of a fundamentalist Christian. It really drives home the point that all this "End Times" stuff in not just harmless nonsense. It really does appear to have a measurable detrimental effect in the real world. Perhaps I should stop sitting on the fence and join the militant atheist side!
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Belinda »

Steve wrote:

Perhaps I should stop sitting on the fence and join the militant atheist side!
I did until I realised that so many militant atheists were against any and all things churchy, which I am not. The MAs cut too wide a swaythe.
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Steve3007 »

Belinda:

Yes, I think I probably agree. I like churches too! If they want to knock them all down and replace them particle accelerators, I'm out. And militant atheism seems to so often go along with a kind of smart-aleckyness that is almost as bad as some of the arrogance that appears in some at the other extreme on the theist side. I don't know if you've ever listened to the radio programme called "The Infinite Monkey Cage" with the physicist Brian Cox and comedian Robin Ince. That has a lot of the smart aleckyness that puts me off. Although I still quite like it.
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Logic_ill »

I don't know many militant atheists, except for a few I watch on videos, but I do get the feeling they do want to reduce the scope of human experience. Well, I've not seen this in all who identify as militant, but in some.

Where there's sentience and consciousness, there may be many unexplained experiences, and although many may fall into the realm of "the supernatural", I think they are worth discussing. I mean, we have children in our midst and we have all kinds of imaginings, some have metaphysical experiences, dreams, out of body experiences, some sleep walk, some have deliriums, due to fever or near death experiences, drugs, etc. I couldn't imagine leaving all these experiences out. I understand that one might not want to force any ideas derived under these experiences on others, but I think it's perfectly normal to share them. Life is long...
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Sy Borg
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote:Thank you for that correction. It renders the story entirely plausible. Although, do you think "my" should be capitalized? Like "God" and "Him"? We may need to consult a theological authority on that one.
Yes, of course - My! Really, if you're God, you might as well go the hog with MY.
Steve3007 wrote:It really drives home the point that all this "End Times" stuff in not just harmless nonsense. It really does appear to have a measurable detrimental effect in the real world. Perhaps I should stop sitting on the fence and join the militant atheist side!
I don't know. I speak up online occasionally but I am fatalistic. The wealth and power disparity means that the future is not in the hands of ordinary people. I'm guessing that this dynamic will play out with any species that evolves our kind of abstract intelligence and capacity - ecosystem damage, resource depletion, extinctions, vast population growth followed by catastrophic culling, survivors rebuilding a little wiser for the experience, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a standard phase of civilisations around the universe (assuming that we are not alone).

It would echo the story of evolution - one of long buildups and dramatic culls, then rebuilding and refreshing from a more complex base with accelerated progress. Three steps forward and two steps back. That's how it's looking to me. The Earth can't realistically sustain more than 7 billion people over each of the next 100 years. The environment and resources are already depleted, climate change is in its early stages, there's significant conflict and the second half of this century won't be for the faint-hearted.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Steve3007
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Re: Jesus came to Earth again! What?! Would we recognize Him

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta, I suspect that what you say there is absolutely true. Given that I have children who are young enough to have a reasonable chance of making it into the 22nd Century, it sometimes troubles me. But then I think, oh well, that's their problem. It may be true that we don't inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. But as someone recently pointed out (I forget who): everything my kids have ever borrowed from me has come back broken. So let's see how they like.
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