Proof of God

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
Sacrontine
Posts: 447
Joined: July 14th, 2014, 11:59 pm

Re: Proof of God

Post by Sacrontine »

Eaglerising wrote:It is revealed by what you say. You are going to have trouble with it if you cannot see that you make illogical statements and contract yourself.
Ok, then as the only person here seeing my contradictions and illogical statements, please save me from the approaching trouble by pointing out what exactly I've done wrong.
Eaglerising
Posts: 231
Joined: April 2nd, 2016, 8:12 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Re: Proof of God

Post by Eaglerising »

Socrontine – I am not responsible for educating you, that's your responsibility.
Sacrontine
Posts: 447
Joined: July 14th, 2014, 11:59 pm

Re: Proof of God

Post by Sacrontine »

Eaglerising wrote:Socrontine – I am not responsible for educating you, that's your responsibility.
I like to think we all learn from each other on these forums, isn't that the purpose of discussion? But perhaps you're not interested in discussion.
Eaglerising
Posts: 231
Joined: April 2nd, 2016, 8:12 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Re: Proof of God

Post by Eaglerising »

If I wasn't interested I would have not commented on it. I have pointed out to you what you can either examine, ignore or reject. Thus, the ball is in your court, not mine.
Sacrontine
Posts: 447
Joined: July 14th, 2014, 11:59 pm

Re: Proof of God

Post by Sacrontine »

Eaglerising wrote:If I wasn't interested I would have not commented on it. I have pointed out to you what you can either examine, ignore or reject. Thus, the ball is in your court, not mine.
What is there for me to examine? What objections are you raising?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Proof of God

Post by LuckyR »

Sacrontine wrote:I can't see to point in looking for proof of God. Either he wants to be found or he doesn't. If he wanted to be found, he'd just make himself known, so there'd be no need for proof. But it's obvious he doesn't want to be found, and if that's the case we'll never find him no matter what, since he is omnipotent and has perfect hiding skills.
Sorry, I guess some folk are shy about pointing out inconsistencies (or at minimum incomplete analyses). While your conclusion that observations are consistent with an omnipotent (and apparently quite shy) god, they are also completely consistent with an absence of a god.
"As usual... it depends."
Sacrontine
Posts: 447
Joined: July 14th, 2014, 11:59 pm

Re: Proof of God

Post by Sacrontine »

LuckyR wrote:
Sacrontine wrote:I can't see to point in looking for proof of God. Either he wants to be found or he doesn't. If he wanted to be found, he'd just make himself known, so there'd be no need for proof. But it's obvious he doesn't want to be found, and if that's the case we'll never find him no matter what, since he is omnipotent and has perfect hiding skills.
Sorry, I guess some folk are shy about pointing out inconsistencies (or at minimum incomplete analyses). While your conclusion that observations are consistent with an omnipotent (and apparently quite shy) god, they are also completely consistent with an absence of a god.
That's true, either he doesn't exist, or he doesn't want to be found. I'm just saying either way we're not gonna find him.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Proof of God

Post by LuckyR »

Sacrontine wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Sorry, I guess some folk are shy about pointing out inconsistencies (or at minimum incomplete analyses). While your conclusion that observations are consistent with an omnipotent (and apparently quite shy) god, they are also completely consistent with an absence of a god.
That's true, either he doesn't exist, or he doesn't want to be found. I'm just saying either way we're not gonna find him.
Exactly. That's why this topic (and thread) and of minimal importance/interest.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Joustos
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: June 10th, 2017, 2:19 pm

Re: Proof of God

Post by Joustos »

Jaded Sage wrote:1 John 4:8 defines God as love, so God is love.

If love exists, then God exists. Love exists, therefore God exists.

Love ≡ God Love ∴ God


Is the form correct? It's been a long time since I have done logical proofs.
The form is correct, but the content is not, because there is no such a thing as Love (unless you wish to introduce Venus as the Love-goddess). The truth is that love occurs or is done (by somebody or other). This is an activity that may or may not occur; it is not a substance. In order for you to infer that there is a Lover, you must have evidence that loving is being done. There is no evidence that that there is a god who does any loving (which defeats the need for a demonstrative argument that a loving god exists).
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Proof of God

Post by Atreyu »

The OP is not apropos because in reality nobody really thinks of 'God' as being the same thing as a particular emotion which we sometimes experience, i.e. love. So 'love' might be one of God's attributes, but it would be quite nonsensical to say 'God is love'. The manifestations of God might be manifested and described as 'love', but no one would say that that is what God is. We would ordinarily say that God is the power/force which is behind the manifestation of love.

Besides, other organisms, such as ourselves, can also 'do' love. So the existence of one possible attribute of God proves nothing, when that same attribute can be said to be the property of many advanced animals, such as dogs or monkeys. And we see no general and pervasive property of 'love' existing throughout the Cosmos, which could be attributed to a omniscience 'God'. In fact, what we do see is general harshness, ruthless, and a desperate struggle to survive which inevitable ends in death. So using the OP's logic we would ordinarily conclude that either God does not exist, or else He exists but is apparently not very active throughout the Universe, only manifesting Himself in fairly rare circumstances.
User avatar
Sam26
Posts: 99
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 1:23 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Ludwig Wittgenstein

Re: Proof of God

Post by Sam26 »

Jaded Sage wrote:1 John 4:8 defines God as love, so God is love.

If love exists, then God exists. Love exists, therefore God exists.

Love ≡ God Love ∴ God


Is the form correct? It's been a long time since I have done logical proofs.
Yes, the form is correct. It's called modus ponens in logic, i.e., "If P, then Q. P. Therefore, Q.
So your argument is valid, but the real question is not whether it's valid, but whether it's sound. If it's sound, then it's both valid and the premises are true. However, many would say that the first premise is doubtful. It doesn't necessarily follow that because there is love, therefore God exists. What you're saying is that it's necessarily the case that if there is love, then God necessarily exists. How can you prove that a concept (God) has an instance in reality by pointing to another concept (love). If that were the case, then you could prove just about anything. While it's true that your argument is a deductive proof, it doesn't follow from the premise.
User avatar
Newme
Posts: 1401
Joined: December 13th, 2011, 1:21 am

Re: Proof of God

Post by Newme »

Newme wrote:God is love and what is love and how do you prove love? What constitutes as proof of such subjective experiences? Only subjectivity.

Paul Tillech defined God as "one's ultimate concern" - what they love or worship above all. Moses defined God as "I AM that I AM" - consciousness. Jesus (& Buddha who likely influenced Jesus) taught, "The kingdom of God is within you." Gotftried Lebneiz theorized that the essence of everything is the monad - based on perception, indestructible - pops into and out of existence based on internal principles and all monads are interconnected - expressing a mirror of the universe.

So, defining God is more appropriate than dysfunctional but traditional concepts of some finite tyranical grandpa that is projected from man in the image of man.
Another common idea is that sensing God occurs within each person individually... “the kingdom (realm) of God is within you.”

Before anyone freaks out about quoted scripture, keep in mind the reverse of appeal to authority: if a scripture author wrote 2+2=4, would it make it wrong just because it was scripture? Can you experience God - or anything else - anywhere but within you? No. The nature of experience is personal.

So, I cannot give you proof of God - nor can you give it to me. We each experience it within us.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
Dark Matter
Posts: 1366
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: Proof of God

Post by Dark Matter »

Be careful, Newme. When it comes to God, reason is an anathema to some members of this forum.
User avatar
Albert Tatlock
Posts: 183
Joined: October 15th, 2017, 3:23 pm

Re: Proof of God

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Newme wrote:if a scripture author wrote 2+2=4, would it make it wrong just because it was scripture?
Calling it "scripture" doesn't change what it is: just words on paper. There are those who would be biased against anything just because it's written in the Bible but that's no worse than being biased for it just because it's written in the Bible.
So, I cannot give you proof of God - nor can you give it to me. We each experience it within us.
Or not.
User avatar
Scribbler60
Posts: 177
Joined: December 17th, 2015, 11:48 am

Re: Proof of God

Post by Scribbler60 »

LuckyR wrote:Exactly. That's why this topic (and thread) and of minimal importance/interest.
Nailed it. Thousands of years of trying have been unable to prove the theist assertion. It's unlikely to happen on a message board.

From What Is Post-Theism?
The atheist label no longer makes sense because the question of god is a settled fact; a god doesn’t exist and never did, so one doesn’t lack belief, but rather proceeds with the knowledge that there’s no god and conducts their life as such.
Seems that "atheism" is now an outmoded concept, in preference to "post-theism," which is usually defined as:

Post-theism is a variant of nontheism that proposes that the division of theism vs. atheism is obsolete, that God belongs to a stage of human development now past.

Source: What is Post-Theism?
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021