Proof of God

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Dolphin42
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Dolphin42 »

As I said, post #2 finished this topic, as far as the OP is concerned, by pointing out that it's a very simple and obvious example of the "begging the question" fallacy. The conclusion is quite obviously right there in the premise.
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Ranvier
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Ranvier »

Dolphin42
There is never certainty. That is a defining feature of the scientific method.
I did not say "certain" but a level of certainty. Scientific method is a formulation of Hypothesis based on observation with consecutive experimental design attempting to disprove the hypothesis. If the data reveals a significant difference from the Null hypothesis, it means that hypothesis couldn't be disproved, so it holds. Multiple experimental data unable to disprove the hypothesis becomes a Theory with certain level of confidence, until some deviation from the theory is observed as special case, where the math is tweaked. In some cases in history, the belief in the theoretical model was so strong that people who opposed such theory would be ridiculed, imprisoned, or even killed. Ex. Earth being flat or Copernicus proving that Earth circled around the Sun.

Ranvier:
A scientific mind will think in terms of logic and deduction, offering mathematical equations as proves that are able to predict the reality.
Dolphin42
No, as models for modelling reality. Physical laws, expressed in the language of mathematics, are models of observed reality. Like all models they are more accurate in some areas than others. Like all models they are not intended to reflect every aspect of reality.
I'm not quite sure what's your objection here, scientific mind doesn't use logic? So, "Physical laws are models of reality expressed mathematically?" Look, reality is reality, what we can perceive as reality is something different. Physical phenomena are what we all can experience, such as Gravity, magnetic field, or electromagnetic current when we zap a friend. Naturally in a desire to describe these things we give them names so they can be represented them mathematically as some letter of alphabet or other mark, then we whip out our measuring devices and measure these things in arbitrary numbers to get a general idea of magnitude. Then we look at these numbers an look for patterns, at least that's how it should be. In modern physics we come up with a model that would explain the data that we collected and play with math to prove that data to fit the model (theoretical physics), based on the math (so we don't blow up ourselves or do something silly), we perform experiments that will generate data to be analyzed to prove or disprove the model (experimental physics). This is all fine because we can predict things and build new technology based on those ideas. But this has nothing to do with reality, we still don't know what's gravity or electromagnetic field other than the description of the force. Now, you don't have to be a physicist to ask yourself what happens to Einstein's spacetime as forth dimension accredited to generate Gravitational force within expending and accelerating Universe, where surely such "field" would decrease in strength over time.

Ranvier:
Similarly, a religious messiah or the originator of specific religious belief has such certainty from direct communication with God or deep level of thought, predicting outcomes of human behavior proven by results in reality from those who adhere to such beliefs.
Dolphin42
I don't know whether religious messiahs have certainty. I've never met one.
Well, I don't want to be sarcastic but I hope you aren't comfortable with speaking nonsense. If you say something I'm sure you're fairly comfortable (certain level) of what you're conveying to be true, unless someone is purposely misleading others for some specific reason.

Ranvier:
Both are appealing but to different brain hemispheres, where the left side of the brain is typically more focused on detail and logic and the right side is more focused on the general big picture and abstract thought.
Dolphin42:
I've no idea to what extent this is true because it's not my field of expertise. I've read in popular science articles that this old idea of the functions of the brain's two halves is over-simplistic. But I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions without specialist knowledge.
Of course it's over simplistic, after all there are left handed scientists. This was my fault in using this as an analogy to why people choose different majors in college, due to their diversity in brain architecture stemming from genetics and environmental factors that causes people to be attracted to different types of information.

Dolphin42:
The concept of a "zero mass or momentum at rest" particle is either useful at describing and predicting observations or it isn't. Actually, zero mass particles are not at rest. They travel at the speed of light. In fact, "speed of light" is a bit of a misnomer. It is more accurately described as "speed of zero mass particles".
Why do you put the word gibberish in scare quotes?
Because this is a figure of speech and to denote a subjective view without offending others who believe in zero mass particles.
The thing to bear in mind is that a statement such as "there are particles with zero mass" does not stand on its own. It has beneath it a large body of knowledge. I studied physics to degree level but I am still not qualified to fully explain why the concept of zero mass particles is considered useful in physics for describing and predicting observations. So if it is gibberish to somebody who has not studied the subject, then that is for the same reason why any piece of knowledge at the advanced end of a specialist subject might seem like gibberish to somebody who has not studied it.
What you're saying is that you have certain degree of knowledge in physics and hence you would be reluctant to dismiss a well accepted concept and I'm either a physics genius equal to Einstein or a narrow minded ignorant fool. I guess time will tell
Question: In order to understand a subject (not just physics but any subject) do you think that it is necessary to study that subject?
Good question and in the future I'd prefer this type of posting rather than lengthy quotation polemic. There is a great difference in knowing something and understanding something. I believe that we all have adequate minds that compel us to ask questions on any subject but it's even better to ask educated questions.[/quote]


-- Updated March 2nd, 2017, 2:43 am to add the following --

Let me clarify, nobody understands anything! Only fools can make such a claim. That shouldn't preclude us from asking educated questions.
Josefina1110
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Josefina1110 »

Bertrand Russell is an atheist. How pitiful that he had a world of followers. They won't believe in God how much more so any proof of God. So this argument becomes a vicious cycle -- a parallel headline that will never meet to a common ground. But Jesus also had a world of followers known as Christians. It is not supposed to be contradicted the way it is. Participants of this discussion are debating whether God exists or not. "Is there a God?" would have been the proper topic instead of "Proof of God." Somehow both questions are divisive and cannot be reconciled. Jesus even died because of this argument but he proved Himself right when He resurrected to live forever.
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Rr6
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Favorite Philosopher: R. Bucky Fuller

Re: Proof Existence---See Humans

Post by Rr6 »

https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/07/1 ... ds-prayer/

Here is Fullers proof of God

..."EVER RETHINKING THE LORD’S PRAYER
July 12, 1979

To be satisfactory to science
all definitions
must be stated
in terms of experience......--> ..."
Rr6 wrote:Concepts do exist as metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept. See dictionary.

r6
Rr6 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

A pool of anti-matter occupies space, just as matter does.
Few people grasp what a true non-occupied space, true void is, or that it also what embraces our finite, occupied space Universe/Uni-Verse.
Even less acknokledge this rational logical conclusion, and even fewer have a rational, logical conclusion that invalidates this cosmic conclusion. imho
r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Ranvier
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Ranvier »

Josefina, I would disagree because if it were that simple we wouldn't have so many Christians in the military.
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Rr6
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Favorite Philosopher: R. Bucky Fuller

(**) I think About Something With a Brain Ergo I Exist

Post by Rr6 »

There exists three primary aspects of "G"od.

1} "U"niverse = "G"od

.....1a} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ex concepts of Space, God, Universe, dogs, cats, and our spirit-of-intent,
-------------------line of demarcation-----------
......1b{ macro-infinite, non-occupied space, that, embraces the following,
......1c} finite, occupied space Universe aka Uni-V-erse.

123, ABC thats how easy Universe can be. Simple to grasp. imho

The most critically dangerous aspect facing humanity is ego. Ego falls into the 1a catagory above.

Like anything ego cuts both ways or has two sides. The bad side is expressed very well by the current U.S. president.

The good side is expressed by those searching for truth to expose the presidents lies. imho

r6
Rr6 wrote:https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/07/1 ... ds-prayer/
Here is Fullers proof of God
..."EVER RETHINKING THE LORD’S PRAYER
July 12, 1979
To be satisfactory to science
all definitions
must be stated
in terms of experience......--> ..."
Rr6 wrote:Concepts do exist as metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept. See dictionary.

r6


(Nested quote removed.)
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
Josefina1110
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Josefina1110 »

There are many Christians who are not in the military because of their belief in God. But in the Bible, King David was a brilliant military leader. The Israelites wouldn't have arrived in Israel if the men were not in the military. But God required the leader to ask His permission to go to war. If God was not with them they lose. At times God appointed a leader to lead like Joshua, Gideon, Saul, David and others. Samson asked God to give back his strength so he could die with the Philistines and God gave back Samson' strength and he died with the enemies. Deborah led a battle with her general Balak.
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Ranvier
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Ranvier »

You see, that's where my logic is threatened. It's as if I tell one of my children "I'm with you, go kill your brother because I love you...him not so much"
Josefina1110
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Josefina1110 »

I wonder what logic are you talking about? What is your logic? As for the military in the Scripture, the Israelites are God's people. They were destined to live in Israel - the land of promise. Along the way are other people who worship Ba al and Ashtoreth. All these people were supposed to be destroyed because they prevent the Israelites to reach the Land of Promise. God is the creator of the world and man. It is man's obligation to be faithful to the Creator. Instead, these other people were pagan worshipers and they did not worship the Creator. So God was not with them. They belong to the adversary who is Satan. So these are God's battle and the warriors are His people that matter to Him most. If you don't have God in your life, you are separated from Him and He will look away from you. But He cares for His own. It matters who you belong to. God doesn't love anyone who doesn't know Him and accept Him in his life. Believe Him or not, He holds the inescapable verdict.
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Ranvier
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Ranvier »

My logic dictates that all of us were created by one God, especially if anyone invests any stock in the story of Adam and Eve. I hear the same thing from every religion "It's man's obligation to be faithful to the Creator (insert religion)...otherwise He will look away from you". So, what you're saying is that you were chosen by God to thrive and the rest "them" are animals to be vanquished? Isn't that what Hitler was conveying to German people? After all he must had been correct since he brought Germany from the economic Depression after WW I in less than 10 years to be one of the most powerful countries in Europe! You must see how this is a very slippery slope from history!
Josefina1110
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Josefina1110 »

I don't care Hitler did. He is not Christ. He killed himself because he was losing big time. Christ died but he did not die in vain. He purposely came to die to save humanity from hell.
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Ranvier
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Ranvier »

My point is the hypocrisy of religions, where two religious groups claim that God is on their side in war. That just doesn't make sense and causes a conclusion that both sides work for Satan causing death and agony.

-- Updated March 5th, 2017, 11:23 pm to add the following --

We made a full circle. I hope that Jesus did not die in vain but how come then there are so many Christians in the military?
Josefina1110
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Josefina1110 »

You are asking the same question. Christians are in the military because they want to work for the country to fight against the enemy. As of now our foremost enemy are the Islamic Extremist Terrorist. They are fighting for their God, Allah. Besides we don't want any other country to attack us and possibly conquer us. It is a patriotic duty.
Are you not in the military because the military has to fight and die to protect our country? Most of the military people are Christians and most Christians are patriotic. My point is God is not against war if it is to defend and protect our country and its people. Our enemies are not Christians.
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Ranvier
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Ranvier »

"God is not against war"?? Isn't there somewhere in the ten commandments "Thou shell not kill..."? Your God seems to be bloodthirsty, otherwise I can't explain the wisdom of creating the mankind so they can kill each other.
Josefina1110
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Re: Proof of God

Post by Josefina1110 »

It is clear you haven't read the Bible. Unless you do, you will never understand who God is. There is no use to even carry on with this conversation.
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