Questions about omnipotence paradox

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Socrates Tea
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Socrates Tea »

ChanceIsChange wrote:
Socrates Tea wrote:Just think of it this way:

Maybe God is actually speaking reality into existence, so all he has to do is say, "A stone so heavy I can't lift it."
Yes, and then that stone would instantly come into existence, whereupon God would realize that he can’t lift it, which runs contrary to his omnipotence. That is exactly the paradox we are trying to resolve.

I mean his words constitute existence of the stone, not that the they actually create it.
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Felix
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Felix »

ChanceIsChange: wouldn’t drawing a line between the finite and the infinite actually be a limitation of the infinite, which would, of course, be contradictory to the concept of true infinity?
But that's exactly what the omnipotence paradox does, it demands that the infinite restrict it's action to finite parameters (of weight, resistance, etc.) while simultaneously exceeding those limitations, which is clearly illogical. It's like saying: create a finite thing (e.g., a stone) that is not a finite thing (that has infinite weight).
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Socrates Tea
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Socrates Tea »

What if the question itself is illogical, like asking if colourless green thought sleep furiously?

What is logic is not a limit on power, but it's highest possilble expression, and so considering a contradiction like the one in question is, in essence, illogical and not of power either.
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LuckyR
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by LuckyR »

ChanceIsChange wrote:
LuckyR wrote:Or maybe, god claiming (or his minions in his stead) omnipotence, is lazy shorthand for: "I am way, way more powerful than you, so much so that it seems like omnipotence from your perspective, though I am not actually omnipotent".
That is not what the omnipotence paradox is about. The omnipotence paradox is used to investigate the nature of omnipotence, and ‘God’ is just shorthand for ‘omnipotent “entity”’.
Exactly. If omnipotence is a myth propagated by the minions of various gods, then there is no paradox since there is no omnipotence.
"As usual... it depends."
ChanceIsChange
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by ChanceIsChange »

Socrates Tea wrote:
ChanceIsChange wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Yes, and then that stone would instantly come into existence, whereupon God would realize that he can’t lift it, which runs contrary to his omnipotence. That is exactly the paradox we are trying to resolve.
I mean his words constitute existence of the stone, not that the they actually create it.
But even if that’s the case, the stone can have existence; regardless of whether the stone is created or its existence constituted by God’s words, its existence is potential, i.e. the existence of an object that can prove God to be incapable of something is possible, violating his omnipotence. How does that resolve the paradox?

-- Updated January 7th, 2017, 12:02 pm to add the following --
Felix wrote:
ChanceIsChange: wouldn’t drawing a line between the finite and the infinite actually be a limitation of the infinite, which would, of course, be contradictory to the concept of true infinity?
But that's exactly what the omnipotence paradox does, it demands that the infinite restrict its action to finite parameters (of weight, resistance, etc.) while simultaneously exceeding those limitations, which is clearly illogical. It's like saying: create a finite thing (e.g., a stone) that is not a finite thing (that has infinite weight).
You’re right in saying that the omnipotence paradox challenges the infinite to restrict itself and simultaneously exceed those restrictions. However, saying that such a feat would be illogical is applying the laws of (finite) logic to the infinite, which is not valid.

-- Updated January 8th, 2017, 8:07 am to add the following --
Socrates Tea wrote:What if the question itself is illogical, like asking if colourless green thought sleep furiously?

What is logic is not a limit on power, but it's highest possilble expression, and so considering a contradiction like the one in question is, in essence, illogical and not of power either.
Omnipotence means the power to do absolutely anything at all. Doesn’t that automatically include being able to accomplish the possible, the impossible, the logical, the illogical, the hyper-logical, the meaningful and the meaningless, to name just a few?

Isn’t saying that transcending logic is not a power essentially arbitrarily defining power as a logical notion?

-- Updated January 8th, 2017, 8:23 am to add the following --
LuckyR wrote:If omnipotence is a myth propagated by the minions of various gods, then there is no paradox since there is no omnipotence.
That would be the solution also proposed by Renee that the omnipotence paradox is a logical proof of the impossibility of omnipotence. I admit that it is quite a promising solution, but it does not help us in thinking beyond logic.

Regarding gods and their minions, does a non-omnipotent entity have the right to be called a god? Also, isn’t it more probable that omnipotence is a concept discovered by humans rather than a myth propagated by various “gods” whose divinity and existence are questionable? For if those “gods” are not omnipotent, then why should only they and not humans have come up with the concept, considering that both are not omnipotent? Wouldn’t an explanation involving a true God be more convincing? Of course, we shouldn’t dismiss any possibility completely.
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Lark_Truth
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Lark_Truth »

It seems to me as if to one in this forum actually has the answer to this "paradox" of whether or not God can or cannot create a stone that he cannot lift.
Chew on this: God can create a stone that he cannot lift, he just chooses not to, which makes him omnipotent.
There is another such paradox just like this question: Can God tell a lie?
Answer: He can, He just chooses not to.
In fact, all sorts of things questioning God's omnipotence can be answered that way: He can, He just chooses not to.
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LuckyR
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by LuckyR »

ChanceIsChange wrote:
LuckyR wrote:If omnipotence is a myth propagated by the minions of various gods, then there is no paradox since there is no omnipotence.
That would be the solution also proposed by Renee that the omnipotence paradox is a logical proof of the impossibility of omnipotence. I admit that it is quite a promising solution, but it does not help us in thinking beyond logic.

Regarding gods and their minions, does a non-omnipotent entity have the right to be called a god? Also, isn’t it more probable that omnipotence is a concept discovered by humans rather than a myth propagated by various “gods” whose divinity and existence are questionable? For if those “gods” are not omnipotent, then why should only they and not humans have come up with the concept, considering that both are not omnipotent? Wouldn’t an explanation involving a true God be more convincing? Of course, we shouldn’t dismiss any possibility completely.
Sure, why not call someone vastly superior (yet not omnipotent) a god? What else would you call it? In the pantheon of gods, Western omnipotent gods were late to the party. Roman gods weren't omnipotent, we call them gods to this day.

No doubt humans created for themselves the idea of omnipotence. That is, of course unrelated to whether there are actual beings who display the property or not. To my mind, claiming omnipotence (by gods) is "more probably" either bravado or lazy shorthand for: "way, way more powerful than you".
"As usual... it depends."
Darshan
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Darshan »

Earthellism solves the question about of omnipotence paradox. God is only omnipotent in heaven. God is only omnibenevolent here on earthell which directly solves the problem of evil. The best analogy is consider your parents and their relationship to you. The best relationship of a parent to a child is to be all loving and not all controlling. God is love and love is God and earthell is showered by love from God. Hell is on earth and not below us and human devils not free will explain the innocent suffering and death here. God could not stop Hitler or stop 911. God could not stop the Holocaust. God cannot stop childhood cancers. We live among millions of human devils who seek to cause innocent pain and suffering on human beings. Hitler was a human but not a human being. Hitler was an atheistic human devil who enjoyed killing children.
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Present awareness
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Present awareness »

I have a 6 inch invisible man standing in the palm of my hand. You can't see him, of course because he is invisible. What's more, he is omnipotent, meaning there is nothing he cannot do. He decided to create an immovable object, that not even he could move and then he decided to create an unstoppable object, that not even he could stop. Then just for fun, he decide to put the immovable object and unstoppable object on a collision course, just to see what would happen when they collide. Whom do you think would win? If the immovable object moved or the unstoppable object stopped, then they wouldn't be unmovable or unstoppable, so what's the answer?
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Woodart
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Woodart »

Present awareness wrote:I have a 6 inch invisible man standing in the palm of my hand. You can't see him, of course because he is invisible. What's more, he is omnipotent, meaning there is nothing he cannot do. He decided to create an immovable object, that not even he could move and then he decided to create an unstoppable object, that not even he could stop. Then just for fun, he decide to put the immovable object and unstoppable object on a collision course, just to see what would happen when they collide. Whom do you think would win? If the immovable object moved or the unstoppable object stopped, then they wouldn't be unmovable or unstoppable, so what's the answer?

The unmovable object is the universe. The unstoppable object is time. When they meet – which they do always – we get the present.
Dark Matter
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Dark Matter »

Present awareness wrote:I have a 6 inch invisible man standing in the palm of my hand. You can't see him, of course because he is invisible. What's more, he is omnipotent, meaning there is nothing he cannot do. He decided to create an immovable object, that not even he could move and then he decided to create an unstoppable object, that not even he could stop. Then just for fun, he decide to put the immovable object and unstoppable object on a collision course, just to see what would happen when they collide. Whom do you think would win? If the immovable object moved or the unstoppable object stopped, then they wouldn't be unmovable or unstoppable, so what's the answer?
My wife. :wink:
Prothero
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Re: Questions about omnipotence paradox

Post by Prothero »

I do not see what religious problem the conception of "divine omnipotence" solves.

In fact its seems to create several severe religious problems (the problem of evil, the problem of the efficacy of will and moral responsibility, and the problem of fixity of the future as opposed to an open future.

Why not abandon the concept of omnipotence? See Charles Hartshorne Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes (Omniscience is another).

God is powerful and can bring order, complexity, life and consciousness from the deep, the void and chaos, but God is not the only power in the universe. Other agents have limited power and independent existence of their own.

God works through nature and natural process, not by contravening the laws of nature or by special revelation.

Or at least a concept worth consideration.
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