Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
User avatar
Bahman
Posts: 213
Joined: July 3rd, 2016, 11:51 am

Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Bahman »

Relation is about cause and effect. Lets consider two persons who are chatting, first person causes, say something for example, this affects second person, hear what it was said and get affected, the second person react in the same way. God however is changeless since it cannot be affected by us hence making relationship with God is impossible.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by LuckyR »

Bahman wrote:Relation is about cause and effect. Lets consider two persons who are chatting, first person causes, say something for example, this affects second person, hear what it was said and get affected, the second person react in the same way. God however is changeless since it cannot be affected by us hence making relationship with God is impossible.
Not a bad opinion, though many theists will vigorously argue with you on that one. Of course atheists will agree with you that since gods don't exist that you are correct in a way since they (as nonexistents) would never change.
"As usual... it depends."
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13821
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Belinda »

Bahman wrote:Relation is about cause and effect. Lets consider two persons who are chatting, first person causes, say something for example, this affects second person, hear what it was said and get affected, the second person react in the same way. God however is changeless since it cannot be affected by us hence making relationship with God is impossible.
The Christian God is a personal god which means that you can have a relationship with Him. I am not sure about the Islamic Allah or the modern Judaic god.

Long long ago Biblical stories were composed of the Judaic or Israelite God walking and talking with people often upon hill tops, and surely the people then had relationships with god. There was even a covenant between God and people after Noah's Flood where God promised not to again punish people .

The idea of changeless God may be due to the Greek, Platonic,(Form of the Good:Form of the True) influence upon Judaism and subsequent Judeo Christianity.
Socialist
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Grunth »

God is irrational.

So be careful what he tells you.
User avatar
BardoXV
New Trial Member
Posts: 16
Joined: August 8th, 2016, 10:37 am

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by BardoXV »

Grunth wrote:God is irrational.

So be careful what he tells you.
More like the people who tell you about God are irrational, so be careful what you believe.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Grunth »

BardoXV wrote:
Grunth wrote:God is irrational.

So be careful what he tells you.
More like the people who tell you about God are irrational, so be careful what you believe.
I fail to distinguish a difference between god and reported god. Are not holy books reports?
User avatar
Skania
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: January 28th, 2016, 5:49 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Skania »

Bahman wrote:Relation is about cause and effect. Lets consider two persons who are chatting, first person causes, say something for example, this affects second person, hear what it was said and get affected, the second person react in the same way. God however is changeless since it cannot be affected by us hence making relationship with God is impossible.
Bahman,

This is an interesting question, which goes to the 'eternal'. What would an eternal being be like? Of course we cannot know what the theistic God would be like, but we can still play with the idea.

Rainer Maria Rilke wrote a poem about God being lonely in the night and the poet wanting to take God a drink of water. Could such a being have needs? Well, the Christian God supposedly created us and gave us freewill. That does sounds like loneliness, particularly in a creation that can accept or reject the maker. If we accepted and loved God, that could be the real deal to an eternally lonely being.

We might also consider whether the act of creation is change for the creator. Artists and writers in our mortal realm do say that they experience change in the creative process, and I have some little personal experience of this. Maybe we could infer that the act of divine creation is similar? Of course any speculation of this sort is just that, but not without interest.

S.
User avatar
DuncanIdaho
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: September 29th, 2016, 5:21 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by DuncanIdaho »

Here are a couple quick thoughts on this.

(As a side note, you could argue that if God is perfect then there is no reason for Him to change, and the point for the relationship is for us to change to be more like Him. That argument doesn’t interest me very much or seem as likely so I won’t dive into that possibility at this moment.)

I would argue that it would be possible to have a relationship with a "changeless" God, if God is a truly eternal being. This may sound contradictory, but it makes sense if you separate how a mortal would perceive eternity and how a truly eternal being would perceive it.

So let's say God is truly eternal, He has existed and will exist for an eternity past and an eternal future. But let's say that He also perceives all of time at the same "time", meaning He is conscious and present in all moments equally without restriction on His ability to act on reality at any point along the timeline without any regard for the order of any changes. This would mean that from our point of view, an eternity would "pass" without the core being of God ever truly changing according to how we saw Him. This would also mean that any number of realities could have or will eventually come and go along His personal timeline, though because we exist within this particular reality we would never be able to interact with any of those timelines. What this means is that by creating this timeline, His interactions with us affect Him and does actually change Him, but since we can only interact with Him from our limited perspective of time we would not be able to perceive these changes since the effect of our interactions will have seemingly been in place before the causes.

For example: Say a loved one underwent a dangerous, live-saving operation a few hours ago. You don’t know at his point if they survived the procedure. You pray that they have survived and will make a full recovery. You find out a few minutes later that they did in fact survive and they will likely make a full recovery. Were they fine when you prayed? Had they actually died, and the past was changed? There is no way for you to know, because from your perspective if the past had been changed you would have no memory of the original past. From God’s perspective this would be no different from interfering with an event that has not yet happened from your perspective, since events that are not in your present have either already happened or have yet to happen, but for Him have happened, are happening and have yet to happen simultaneously.

If we accept this possibility, it would mean that God can be eternal, even “unchanging” from our point of view. Since any change He would experience would change who He is simultaneously through all of our timeline, we could not perceive any real change in who He is giving the illusion of being unchanging. Since the only reality we could know would be His “current” timeline, we can have a relationship with an “unchanging” God that has the capacity to change.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Belindi »

My Reply to DuncanIdaho:

If God occasionally intervenes as He did in your scenario of the dangerous surgical operation then He would have to make a complete new nature to correspond with a previously impossible surgical outcome. This claim is as true as causality is true.

If causality is not true then God , if He makes order from chaos, would have to employ some other ordering principle. I don't think that anyone can imagine any ordering principle other than causation. I don't refer to simplisitic linear causation. I refer to wholistic necessity.
User avatar
Newme
Posts: 1401
Joined: December 13th, 2011, 1:21 am

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Newme »

Similar to Duncan's implications, objective truth (aka God) is unchanging. What changes are all of us who are limited by subjective thinking. "The kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you" - it's not some external thing. So paradoxically, God may be unchanging, yet because God is experienced within a dynamic vessel, the perception is always changing.

Think about what seems more alive - something that grows and changes or something that remains stilland the same?
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
User avatar
OntheHorizon
Posts: 388
Joined: May 18th, 2013, 8:36 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by OntheHorizon »

Bahman wrote:Relation is about cause and effect. Lets consider two persons who are chatting, first person causes, say something for example, this affects second person, hear what it was said and get affected, the second person react in the same way. God however is changeless since it cannot be affected by us hence making relationship with God is impossible.
I don't think this follows at all. I am an atheist and the context wherein the statement is found about god not changing is not referencing the inability to respond, or react or move. Further more I myself am not CHANGING by walking across a room. My body is moving and reacting to the environment but that is rightly referred to as changing. It IS me that is moves around the environment and when I do what I myself innately do, that isn't me changing. When my brain sees the floor or objects and my body moves around them that is my body or my essence changing into something new, it's following preexisting patterns and methods that were in fact always a part of me. A conversation between two people does not require that those people be changing. The human brain can hold a conversation all by itself, assessing and responding are built in patterns, not evidence that the brain has become something new.

But the idea that god cannot change comes from religious texts that also do not provide the claim that god does not talk or listen or learn or respond, these religious texts are full of examples of him talking, listening, responding and sometimes even learning.
There is no evil and the only reason we ever gave in to believing in it was because we are good.
Dark Matter
Posts: 1366
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Dark Matter »

Belindi wrote: If causality is not true then God, if He makes order from chaos, would have to employ some other ordering principle. I don't think that anyone can imagine any ordering principle other than causation.
I can: personality. But that would mean that Creatorship is not an attribute of God, but rather the aggregate of God's infinite, acting nature.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by Belindi »

Dark Matter wrote:
Belindi wrote: If causality is not true then God, if He makes order from chaos, would have to employ some other ordering principle. I don't think that anyone can imagine any ordering principle other than causation.
I can: personality. But that would mean that Creatorship is not an attribute of God, but rather the aggregate of God's infinite, acting nature.
In what way is personality acausal?

What might God be other than
God's infinite, acting nature
?
User avatar
OntheHorizon
Posts: 388
Joined: May 18th, 2013, 8:36 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by OntheHorizon »

OntheHorizon wrote:
Bahman wrote:Relation is about cause and effect. Lets consider two persons who are chatting, first person causes, say something for example, this affects second person, hear what it was said and get affected, the second person react in the same way. God however is changeless since it cannot be affected by us hence making relationship with God is impossible.
I don't think this follows at all. ......
Ok... sorry, correcting typos.

I don't think this follows at all. I am an atheist and the context wherein the statement is found about god not changing is not referencing the inability to respond, or react or move. Further more I myself am not CHANGING by walking across a room. My body is moving and reacting to the environment but that is NOT rightly referred to as changing. It IS ME that is moving around the environment and when I do what I myself INNATELY DO, that isn't me changing. When my brain sees the floor or objects and my body moves around them that is NOT my body or my essence changing into something new, it's following preexisting patterns and methods that were infact always a part of me. A conversation between two people does not require that those people be changing. The human brain can hold a conversation all by itself, assessing and responding are built in patterns, not evidence that the brain has become something new.

But the idea that god cannot change comes from religious texts that also do not provide the claim that god does not talk or listen or learn or respond, these religious texts are full of examples of him talking, listening, responding and sometimes even learning.
There is no evil and the only reason we ever gave in to believing in it was because we are good.
User avatar
DuncanIdaho
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: September 29th, 2016, 5:21 pm

Re: Relationship with changeless God is impossible

Post by DuncanIdaho »

The point that I was making was that if such a god exists as I describe in my post, then even if He is a god capable of change, we would not be able to observe that change. We would be able to perceive the appearance of Him changing His mind, such as with the many stories from the old testament. In those instances, He would have made it seem as though he "changed" within our timeline for our own benefit. However, since from His perspective He would have "reacted" at the same time as the humans involved acted, if we could observe Him with perfect clarity we would not see an actual change.
He would still be capable of real change in spite of this. Any action on His part would change the events following whatever point in the timeline He edited. He would experience this change through all of our timeline simultaneously and have memory of the previous timeline, while we would be ignorant to any change and only have knowledge of the timeline we exist in.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021