Immortality as a reward in religion

NewAsc · Post by **NewAsc** » August 2nd, 2016, 7:17 pm

Many religions promise immortality as a reward to its worshippers. This is usually part of a post-life or next-life existence, supposedly a happier one. Whether it is in a specific case reward or consolation is not what I want to discuss. Neither is the topic of immortality as punishment.

The question I would like to pose is why do you think immortality is so tantalising and in one way or another almost omnipresent aspect of religion. For me it is as fascinating concept as well as menacing one. To exist forever, seeing either people and civilisations to wither and die or to be forced to endure them indefinitely is to me quite horrifying. Being able to explore so much of the life delights at the price of either experiencing as much pain and loss, or losing the aspect of transience giving sense to so much of our existence.

Why do you think is this state of existence offered as a reward in so many instances? What features would a human mind have to possess to even withstand it and not go insane over the time?

Thank you for giving me your time reading and/or answering my question and line of thought.

Post by **Sy Borg** » August 2nd, 2016, 8:10 pm

It seems from accounts that those who have near death experiences largely disconnect from worldly concerns. To start, priorities change when death approaches. Much that concerns us is simply the process of entropic breakdown at larger scales that ultimately prevents stagnation and opens up growth possibilities. The idea always calls Rome to mind for me, a city hamstrung and gridlocked by its inability to develop much large tracts of the city that contain historically significant relics. The decaying beauty of ancient Rome can be preserved, but that brings an opportunity cost in lost growth potential.

The problem with death is loss. So many connections are broken and learning and methods developed for dealing with the world are lost. It feels like pointless waste. Then again, we don't know if information is actually lost; it may be accumulated at the Planck scale, but the important thing in context is that it feels as though information is lost.

NewAsc · Post by **NewAsc** » August 3rd, 2016, 7:18 am

How do you cope with loss? It is not death of a relative what is on my mind. I lived for more than half of my life in one small city. You see it changing in front of your eyes. The old fences replaced with new ones. Although these are so much more sterile and in the process of construction all the plants with berries near them had to be destroyed. The field in front of this cluster of big houses I lived in was dominated and new top residents housing was estabilished in its place.

The point of my nostalgic ramble is the element of change. Immortality brings stagnation in my opinion. Just like you pointed out this process in Rome. Would you preserve past even when it will hurt you in some way? Or would you rather worship everything that is new? There needs to be some degree of consistency between utter chaos and complete stagnation.

If I am after I die elevated to some sort of afterlife (not Heaven, I don´t think I´d belong there), being immortal from that point, it would be weird. I could either watch this world and weep for all that is lost and the mistakes repeated, or devoid of any information I would spent eternity doing whatever would I be doing if I had eternity to do it.

I think you nailed it perfectly. We do not want all to be lost but we cannot keep it same forever. The concept of eternal afterlife might have a lot to do with preserving our past perfectly without stopping the future. Then again, there is so much speculation and not nearly enough facts to decide it conclusively, so it will be still more of a wish than anything else.

Thank you for the answer I will no doubt go over many many times in upcoming days.

Grunth · Post by **Grunth** » August 4th, 2016, 7:01 am

Belief in afterlife seems to create or empower amorality.

Post by **Sy Borg** » August 4th, 2016, 9:18 am

NewAsc wrote:How do you cope with loss? It is not death of a relative what is on my mind. I lived for more than half of my life in one small city. You see it changing in front of your eyes. The old fences replaced with new ones. Although these are so much more sterile and in the process of construction all the plants with berries near them had to be destroyed. The field in front of this cluster of big houses I lived in was dominated and new top residents housing was established in its place.

It's interesting to see. There is a green space near my home where you can stand on a hill and see the parklands, but with the city's skyscrapers jutting out in the distance behind the treeline. The new world jutting out of the old. Over time that new world will spread.

NewAsc wrote:The point of my nostalgic ramble is the element of change. Immortality brings stagnation in my opinion. Just like you pointed out this process in Rome. Would you preserve past even when it will hurt you in some way? Or would you rather worship everything that is new? There needs to be some degree of consistency between utter chaos and complete stagnation.

Chaos and stagnation, the concerns of conservatives and progressives.

On a personal level it would be nice for growth and development to continue, to continue the journey without becoming decrepit, but we all ultimately have to "surrender to the upgrades".

NewAsc wrote:If I am after I die elevated to some sort of afterlife (not Heaven, I don´t think I´d belong there), being immortal from that point, it would be weird. I could either watch this world and weep for all that is lost and the mistakes repeated, or devoid of any information I would spent eternity doing whatever would I be doing if I had eternity to do it.

I think you nailed it perfectly. We do not want all to be lost but we cannot keep it same forever. The concept of eternal afterlife might have a lot to do with preserving our past perfectly without stopping the future. Then again, there is so much speculation and not nearly enough facts to decide it conclusively, so it will be still more of a wish than anything else.

Thank you for the answer I will no doubt go over many many times in upcoming days.

Yes, heaven as depicted by theists seems a forlorn hope. Still, wouldn't it be fascinating to watch the continued development of life on Earth and see where the story goes? We all have these ideas about what might be going on but none of us get to live to see the answer - frustrating! I would love to see our ancestors (probably mostly made from metal and silicon by then - good on 'em) successfully take to the stars with all the Earth's history they could gather before the planet becomes uninhabitable.

Will they or won't they? What plot twists are in store? Our short lifespans leave us feeling like Game of Thrones fans if RR Martin suddenly decided to quit writing. The crowd wants to know what will happen next, but in our lifespans we are left with what feels like a shaggy dog joke.

Still, if timeless states exist in an afterlife, as are sometimes purported, then maybe there is hope of watching things unfold after all? As you suggest, it's hard to know what we want from an afterlife. We're used to thinking in terms of fairly immediate Earthly concerns, with the shadow of our prospective death always looming and seemingly always thrown in the Put-Off-Until-Later box until we see the Reaper ahead and then we desperately play catch up. In a way, philosophy is a preparation for death - considering those things that the doomed cherish and the healthy ignore.

Post by **LuckyR** » August 4th, 2016, 2:05 pm

Immortality or life after death was invented at a time when the inequality of resources between royalty and the rabble was much higher than even today. Thus convincing the easily fooled into putting up with the present because your reward would be later on was a great pacification tool for the ruling class (including the clerical class).

Post by **Sy Borg** » August 4th, 2016, 7:37 pm

LuckyR wrote:Immortality or life after death was invented at a time when the inequality of resources between royalty and the rabble was much higher than even today. Thus convincing the easily fooled into putting up with the present because your reward would be later on was a great pacification tool for the ruling class (including the clerical class).

Have you forgotten about the spirits of tribal ancestors? :)

Felix · Post by **Felix** » August 5th, 2016, 3:27 pm

I'm not aware of any religion that "promises immortality as a reward" (one could say that about science though). A reward for what? Most religions posit that one is/has an immortal soul but it's stated as a fact, not a promise, for how could any earthly authority grant or deny immortality?

Grunth · Post by **Grunth** » August 5th, 2016, 3:49 pm

Felix wrote:I'm not aware of any religion that "promises immortality as a reward" (one could say that about science though). A reward for what? Most religions posit that one is/has an immortal soul but it's stated as a fact, not a promise, for how could any earthly authority grant or deny immortality?

Not heard of 'Heaven', the reward for being 'righteous' and 'good'? Not heard of 'Paradise' for the reward of martyrdom?

Felix · Post by **Felix** » August 5th, 2016, 4:19 pm

Not heard of 'Heaven', the reward for being 'righteous' and 'good'? Not heard of 'Paradise' for the reward of martyrdom?

Sure grunth, but these are not a "promise of immortality" but a promise of how you'll spend your immortal existence if you're a good little boy or girl - caveat emptor.

Post by **LuckyR** » August 5th, 2016, 10:21 pm

Greta wrote:
LuckyR wrote:Immortality or life after death was invented at a time when the inequality of resources between royalty and the rabble was much higher than even today. Thus convincing the easily fooled into putting up with the present because your reward would be later on was a great pacification tool for the ruling class (including the clerical class).
Have you forgotten about the spirits of tribal ancestors?

Uummm... I was specifically refering to tribal elders/ancestors.

Grunth · Post by **Grunth** » August 5th, 2016, 11:04 pm

Felix wrote:Not heard of 'Heaven', the reward for being 'righteous' and 'good'? Not heard of 'Paradise' for the reward of martyrdom?

Sure grunth, but these are not a "promise of immortality" but a promise of how you'll spend your immortal existence if you're a good little boy or girl - caveat emptor.

Could you define, for me, the difference you conceive between 'immortality' and 'immortal existence'?

-- Updated August 6th, 2016, 4:07 pm to add the following --

The difference between an immortal what and an immortality of what? In other words, what is 'what' in either circumstance?

Quotidian · Post by **Quotidian** » August 6th, 2016, 5:04 am

I think there's a conceptual difference between 'immortality' and 'existing forever'. In other words, I don't believe that religions do actually promise that you will literally 'live forever' in your current form, which would, as the OP suggests, be a rather terrifying prospect. I think what has happened is that the original meaning of the idea has been lost in transmission, as it were - so that it is depicted in terms which we now think we understand, but we actually don't understand at all.

Grunth · Post by **Grunth** » August 6th, 2016, 5:19 am

Quotidian wrote:I think there's a conceptual difference between 'immortality' and 'existing forever'. In other words, I don't believe that religions do actually promise that you will literally 'live forever' in your current form, which would, as the OP suggests, be a rather terrifying prospect. I think what has happened is that the original meaning of the idea has been lost in transmission, as it were - so that it is depicted in terms which we now think we understand, but we actually don't understand at all.

You merely don't believe they do actually promise such things? Only if you ignore the language. The language is what speaks. If it wasn't the language that speaks then there is no use for language. We need to look at the average, everyday religious person. Each are not some sort of sage that deconstructs some deeply coded language to reveal some secret only they can decipher . The impact of religion is it's mass adherents. Without such masses we would not even be aware of a religion's existence and would not have it's influence. It has, however, influenced because it is simple in it's promises.